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#4779719 - 06/06/18 11:02 PM LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils?
1JZ_E46 Online   content


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1339
Loc: Oregon
Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro specíd oil Iíve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs donít seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?


Edited by 1JZ_E46 (06/06/18 11:10 PM)
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 108k: M1 10W-30 HM, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 48k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann (for sale)
2016 Mini Countryman S ALL4, 20k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann

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#4779772 - 06/07/18 03:24 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2215
Loc: Malaysia
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.

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#4779776 - 06/07/18 04:00 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 9168
Loc: Miami Florida
Well, Hyundai still publish 5W-40 as a recommended option for the 2.0T and i have that jug on deck for it's next oci. But there have been too many industry papers coming to the same conclusion to think that Calcium and Sodium don't contribute to the issue i.e., from SAE Papers, Chevron Ornite, Lubrizol etc. I guess time will tell. Maybe the exclusion of Na is a simpler, cheaper solution to the issue than introducing the add package found in Euro specc'd oils, just a guess.
_________________________
'18 KIA Sportage LX AWD
Magnatec 5W30

'13 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0T
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#4779937 - 06/07/18 08:50 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: zeng]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

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#4779949 - 06/07/18 08:55 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
Bjornviken Offline


Registered: 12/06/17
Posts: 274
Loc: Finland
Havent heard of any LSPI related issues here in EU. Think its only concerns the ilsac oils line up.

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#4779966 - 06/07/18 09:19 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
Whimsey Offline


Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4107
Loc: The Garden State
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey

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#4779968 - 06/07/18 09:21 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2215
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Points taken, thumbsup

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#4780024 - 06/07/18 10:53 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: Whimsey]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 9168
Loc: Miami Florida
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


This^
_________________________
'18 KIA Sportage LX AWD
Magnatec 5W30

'13 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0T
VFS 5W30

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#4780035 - 06/07/18 11:17 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: Whimsey]
1JZ_E46 Online   content


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1339
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


ACEA C3 oils (specs like LL-04, 229.51, C30) have zinc and phosphorous levels about equal to today's SN/GF-5 oils, and they all have no magnesium and most have no moly.

I think part of the reason LSPI doesn't seem to be a concern for euro manufacturers (at least from an oil formulation standpoint) is that they specify premium fuel for their engines, resulting in less soot (a contributor to LSPI).


Edited by 1JZ_E46 (06/07/18 11:22 AM)
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 108k: M1 10W-30 HM, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 48k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann (for sale)
2016 Mini Countryman S ALL4, 20k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann

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#4780036 - 06/07/18 11:18 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap]
1JZ_E46 Online   content


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1339
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 108k: M1 10W-30 HM, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 48k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann (for sale)
2016 Mini Countryman S ALL4, 20k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann

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#4780041 - 06/07/18 11:23 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2215
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.


.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?

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#4780059 - 06/07/18 11:54 AM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: zeng]
1JZ_E46 Online   content


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1339
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: zeng
.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?


Well, no, but they are still squeezing out every last drop of fuel economy from the engines via engineering and tuning (for CAFE requirements)... which is the cause of LSPI in the first place. Oil is only one very small lever to pull in the quest for MPGs.
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 108k: M1 10W-30 HM, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 48k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann (for sale)
2016 Mini Countryman S ALL4, 20k: Castrol 0W-30, Mann

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#4780147 - 06/07/18 01:26 PM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
drtyler Offline


Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 424
Loc: GA
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.




Edited by drtyler (06/07/18 01:27 PM)

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#4780793 - 06/07/18 11:41 PM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5116
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Nope, they have limits of grams of CO2 per 100km and $6 gallon of gas.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Valvoline 5W40 MST+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4780794 - 06/07/18 11:43 PM Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: drtyler]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5116
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: drtyler
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.



Injector issue is due to cost. Cars in US are cheaper and more affordable.
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Valvoline 5W40 MST+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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