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LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? #4779719
06/06/18 10:02 PM
06/06/18 10:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline OP
1JZ_E46  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro specíd oil Iíve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs donít seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?

Last edited by 1JZ_E46; 06/06/18 10:10 PM.

2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4779772
06/07/18 02:24 AM
06/07/18 02:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4779776
06/07/18 03:00 AM
06/07/18 03:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,026
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
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Kendall, FL
Well, Hyundai still publish 5W-40 as a recommended option for the 2.0T and i have that jug on deck for it's next oci. But there have been too many industry papers coming to the same conclusion to think that Calcium and Sodium don't contribute to the issue i.e., from SAE Papers, Chevron Ornite, Lubrizol etc. I guess time will tell. Maybe the exclusion of Na is a simpler, cheaper solution to the issue than introducing the add package found in Euro specc'd oils, just a guess.


18 Sportage 2.4L AWD:
Now: M1AP 5/20 + M1
Next: VME 5/30

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
Now: PPEuroL 5/30 + OEM
Next: same
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: zeng] #4779937
06/07/18 07:50 AM
06/07/18 07:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
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Posts: 619
Canada
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4779949
06/07/18 07:55 AM
06/07/18 07:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 448
Finland
Bjornviken Offline
Bjornviken  Offline
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Finland
Havent heard of any LSPI related issues here in EU. Think its only concerns the ilsac oils line up.

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4779966
06/07/18 08:19 AM
06/07/18 08:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,308
The Garden State
Whimsey Online content
Whimsey  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,308
The Garden State
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap] #4779968
06/07/18 08:21 AM
06/07/18 08:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Points taken, thumbsup

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: Whimsey] #4780024
06/07/18 09:53 AM
06/07/18 09:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,026
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
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Posts: 10,026
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


This^


18 Sportage 2.4L AWD:
Now: M1AP 5/20 + M1
Next: VME 5/30

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
Now: PPEuroL 5/30 + OEM
Next: same
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: Whimsey] #4780035
06/07/18 10:17 AM
06/07/18 10:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline OP
1JZ_E46  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


ACEA C3 oils (specs like LL-04, 229.51, C30) have zinc and phosphorous levels about equal to today's SN/GF-5 oils, and they all have no magnesium and most have no moly.

I think part of the reason LSPI doesn't seem to be a concern for euro manufacturers (at least from an oil formulation standpoint) is that they specify premium fuel for their engines, resulting in less soot (a contributor to LSPI).

Last edited by 1JZ_E46; 06/07/18 10:22 AM.

2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap] #4780036
06/07/18 10:18 AM
06/07/18 10:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline OP
1JZ_E46  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4780041
06/07/18 10:23 AM
06/07/18 10:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,530
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.


.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: zeng] #4780059
06/07/18 10:54 AM
06/07/18 10:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline OP
1JZ_E46  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,647
Oregon
Originally Posted By: zeng
.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?


Well, no, but they are still squeezing out every last drop of fuel economy from the engines via engineering and tuning (for CAFE requirements)... which is the cause of LSPI in the first place. Oil is only one very small lever to pull in the quest for MPGs.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4780147
06/07/18 12:26 PM
06/07/18 12:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 449
GA
drtyler Offline
drtyler  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 449
GA
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.



Last edited by drtyler; 06/07/18 12:27 PM.
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: nap] #4780793
06/07/18 10:41 PM
06/07/18 10:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,870
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
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Posts: 5,870
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Nope, they have limits of grams of CO2 per 100km and $6 gallon of gas.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? [Re: drtyler] #4780794
06/07/18 10:43 PM
06/07/18 10:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,870
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,870
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: drtyler
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.



Injector issue is due to cost. Cars in US are cheaper and more affordable.
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
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