LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils?

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Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro spec’d oil I’ve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs don’t seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?
 
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C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
 
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Well, Hyundai still publish 5W-40 as a recommended option for the 2.0T and i have that jug on deck for it's next oci. But there have been too many industry papers coming to the same conclusion to think that Calcium and Sodium don't contribute to the issue i.e., from SAE Papers, Chevron Ornite, Lubrizol etc. I guess time will tell. Maybe the exclusion of Na is a simpler, cheaper solution to the issue than introducing the add package found in Euro specc'd oils, just a guess.
 

nap

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Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
 
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The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI. Whimsey
 
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Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
Points taken, thumbsup
 
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Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI. Whimsey
This^
 
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Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI. Whimsey
ACEA C3 oils (specs like LL-04, 229.51, C30) have zinc and phosphorous levels about equal to today's SN/GF-5 oils, and they all have no magnesium and most have no moly. I think part of the reason LSPI doesn't seem to be a concern for euro manufacturers (at least from an oil formulation standpoint) is that they specify premium fuel for their engines, resulting in less soot (a contributor to LSPI).
 
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Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.
.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?
 
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Originally Posted By: zeng
.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?
Well, no, but they are still squeezing out every last drop of fuel economy from the engines via engineering and tuning (for CAFE requirements)... which is the cause of LSPI in the first place. Oil is only one very small lever to pull in the quest for MPGs.
 
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I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.
 
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Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg. LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
Nope, they have limits of grams of CO2 per 100km and $6 gallon of gas.
 
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Originally Posted By: drtyler
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.
Injector issue is due to cost. Cars in US are cheaper and more affordable. Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.
 
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I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
 
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Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans aren’t concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans aren’t concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.
On a personal observation, after running what the dealer put in the initial fillup on our Mazda, I switched to 91 octane. What I noticed were quicker upshifts running uphill. The computers must be adjusting timing to compensate for the higher octane? In layman’s terms, there is less lugging of the engine which in my opinion is the cause of LSPI. With the knock sensors and such on today’s modern engines we don’t hear the knocking or pinging like in the old days but the sense that the engine is lugging is still there. A lot of this too is due to the automatic transmissions programmed to upshift quickly into higher gears.
 
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Not always. VW recommendation for '17 GTI is 87 octane.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans aren’t concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.
 
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Higher octane and no ethanol. E0 92 octane gas really wakes up my Santa Fe as it did my Colorado before it..
 
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