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Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: wemay] #4778291
06/05/18 03:31 PM
06/05/18 03:31 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,597
Nokesville, VA
brianl703 Offline
brianl703  Offline

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,597
Nokesville, VA
Well, E85 mixed 50/50 with E10 so as not to cause a lean code.

Unless some parts of the fuel system are water-soluble, you don't need to worry about ethanol dissolving them.


Last edited by brianl703; 06/05/18 03:33 PM.
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: wemay] #4778300
06/05/18 03:34 PM
06/05/18 03:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada

Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: wemay] #4778375
06/05/18 05:04 PM
06/05/18 05:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 561
California
DGXR Offline
DGXR  Offline

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 561
California
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Any manufacturer who cannot build an engine that can handle e15 is incompetent. 5% can't matter that much. Common sense.


Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Yes. If there was some crisis you could run e85 in almost anything. Too much anal retention


Not every vehicle on the road was built after 2001. Many manufacturers will void the warranty if anything over E10 is put into the fuel tank. Yes I know those older vehicle warranties have mostly expired anyway, but I hope you get my point. Many late model motorcycles and other small engines (warranty still intact) also do not allow anything over E10 or the warranty is void.

But what bugs me most is the lower energy content and resulting lower fuel economy. Also it does not make any sense to create higher emissions, pollution, and environmental degradation elsewhere in exchange for lower emissions at the tailpipe. I guess "more jobs" is the only real justification for corn fuels.


1995 Corvette coupe LT1 6-speed
2006 Tacoma 2.7 Base SR5 AC
1999 Yamaha YZ400FL
2003 Honda XR400R
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: nap] #4778405
06/05/18 05:44 PM
06/05/18 05:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,365
Florida
hatt Offline
hatt  Offline

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,365
Florida


2013 F150 5.0, Delo XLE CK-4 10W-30, Baldwin B7449
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 10W-30, Mobil1 M1C-251A
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: turtlevette] #4778617
06/05/18 09:49 PM
06/05/18 09:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,827
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,827
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Any manufacturer who cannot build an engine that can handle e15 is incompetent.

Absolutely. If a company can make flex fueled vehicles, E15 should be a breeze.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5% can't matter that much. Common sense.

But, going from 10% ethanol to 15% ethanol is a 50% increase.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: Garak] #4778743
06/06/18 03:15 AM
06/06/18 03:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,191
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,191
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5% can't matter that much. Common sense.

But, going from 10% ethanol to 15% ethanol is a 50% increase.


Another 2.5% (ish) change in stoichiometry, on top of an already 5% change.

Saying that because 5% was easy that another 2.5% can't matter much...all vehicles, all driving conditions, all vehicle conditions displays not much knowledge of the differences themselves.

Elastomers and materials are the "easy" bit.

Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: hatt] #4778813
06/06/18 07:24 AM
06/06/18 07:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 505
Wisconsin
Rmay635703 Offline
Rmay635703  Offline

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 505
Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: hatt


What’s unfortunate is that ethanol can easily be made from other things more efficiently
Thousands of tons of potato’s are waste but because they have no lobby the waste isn’t made into ethanol

Further ethanol can be made the “old slow way” in the summer using 1/10 the energy of the highly energy intense automated way.

But again we as a country like everything
Fast
Easy
Wasteful

Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: Rmay635703] #4778833
06/06/18 07:57 AM
06/06/18 07:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,740
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,740
Upper Midwest
Regardless of how it's made the point remains that it is unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful and unneeded.

Originally Posted By: Rmay635703
What’s unfortunate is that ethanol can easily be made from other things more efficiently
Thousands of tons of potato’s are waste but because they have no lobby the waste isn’t made into ethanol

Further ethanol can be made the “old slow way” in the summer using 1/10 the energy of the highly energy intense automated way.

But again we as a country like everything
Fast
Easy
Wasteful


1994 BMW 530i, 242K
1996 Honda Accord, 277K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 418K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: Shannow] #4779359
06/06/18 04:55 PM
06/06/18 04:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,827
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,827
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Elastomers and materials are the "easy" bit.

Yes, my point is about materials and then sensors able to adjust fueling mixtures as needed. I'm not saying anything as to whether or not more ethanol should be used, but that it certainly can be.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: wemay] #4779760
06/07/18 12:31 AM
06/07/18 12:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 591
Cave City KY
jakewells Offline
jakewells  Offline

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 591
Cave City KY
upgrades are easy on my nova to run either e15 or e85 but i prefer the fuel economy using ethanol free it is getting close to 21 highway on E0.


1996 Chevy 1500 W/T 4.3 V6.
Mobil 1 HM 10W30 Fram XG3980

A few old lawn boys.

Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: hatt] #4782855
06/10/18 08:35 AM
06/10/18 08:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,486
Central Iowa
TiredTrucker Offline
TiredTrucker  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,486
Central Iowa
Originally Posted By: hatt
If we didn't waste all the ethanol in E10 and other scams we'd have plenty for E85 for a competitive price vs gasoline. I'd have no problem running E85 if it saved me money.


Depends on location. E85 has had a significant price spread between E0 and E10 in my area that my 2015 2500 6.0 has been on E85 since last fall. Price spreads have averaged between 80 and 90 cents lower for E85. Sure, lower mpg, but also lower cost per mile to use. Just like everyone else, I like higher mpg. It feels better. But the businessman in me can easily look past that and evaluate the cost per mile. And E85 has been giving a lower cost per mile to use for 3/4 of a year now in my area.

The wife's 2006 Cadillac has been on E15 for a while. Not any appreciable mpg difference than E10, but 5 cents a gallon cheaper.


Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: Rmay635703] #4782865
06/10/18 08:46 AM
06/10/18 08:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,486
Central Iowa
TiredTrucker Offline
TiredTrucker  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,486
Central Iowa
Originally Posted By: Rmay635703
Originally Posted By: hatt


What’s unfortunate is that ethanol can easily be made from other things more efficiently
Thousands of tons of potato’s are waste but because they have no lobby the waste isn’t made into ethanol

Further ethanol can be made the “old slow way” in the summer using 1/10 the energy of the highly energy intense automated way.

But again we as a country like everything
Fast
Easy
Wasteful


Sugar beets always comes to mind when I think about source stock that could be used for ethanol production.

Doesn't really matter. Corn prices, on an inflation adjusted basis, are lower than they were in the mid 1990's. Only 20% of the corn crop is targeted for human consumption. Of the remaining 80%, only 40% of that is used for ethanol production and even then, of every bushel of corn that goes into ethanol production, 17-18 lbs of high protein feed supplement comes out the other end. Along with various polymers and other items from ethanol processing.


Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: kschachn] #4783133
06/10/18 03:11 PM
06/10/18 03:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
turtlevette Offline
turtlevette  Offline

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Regardless of how it's made the point remains that it is unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful and unneeded.



When oil hits 150 a barrel, say that again.


USA-1
Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: wemay] #4783398
06/10/18 09:09 PM
06/10/18 09:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Canada
Speaking of price, what mechanism prevents ethanol producers to jack up the prices when they see fit?

Re: Get ready for E15. The push is real... [Re: turtlevette] #4783513
06/11/18 01:18 AM
06/11/18 01:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,191
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,191
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Regardless of how it's made the point remains that it is unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful and unneeded.



When oil hits 150 a barrel, say that again.


IF it genuinely resulted in less oil being burned (farms and trucks don't run on it) the energy balance is debatable.

IF the customer broke even with the mileage hit

IF the outcomes weren't being driven by industry/farm lobbyists, but were based on science, and the above.

THEN you could say "fair enough, let the market decide.

WHEN the energy balance is questionable
WHEN the policy is being "guided" (to be nice) by Lobbyists
WHEN they don't price it such that the consumer breaks even,

THEN you can say that it's wasteful, unnecessary, and ultimately unhelpful (remember the guy you were responding to understands science and chemistry, not feel good propaganda.

WRT pricing.

When it was introduced to Australia, gas was $1/litre, and you got 4c off for ethanol. The price paid for the energy in the tank that you weren't getting.
Now it's $1.40 (and has bee $1.70) and the gap is 3c mostly 4c if you are lucky. So the consumer is getting shafted...even if the costs of ethanol production stayed constant, the gap, seeing as it's missing oil from your tank should naturally cover the missing energy at the very minimum...it should be moreso with higher gas prices.

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