Get ready for E15. The push is real...

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Originally Posted By: nap
Speaking of price, what mechanism prevents ethanol producers to jack up the prices when they see fit?


Problem is, so many have little clue how markets work. Ethanol is traded on the commodity exchanges. The Producers have nothing to do with pricing. They get what the market is willing to pay for it, just like oil and refined fuels. It is just like any other commodity. Copper mines don't set copper prices, commodity exchanges do.
 
Problem is that if it's a mandate, it's not free market.
the consumer doesn't get to choose to purchase it or not if he's got no choice.

Why does Australia's biggest producer need to wine and dine Government leaders to "suggest" that it goes to 15% here too ?
 
Yep. Wasting ethanol on E10 mandates just drives up ethanol prices and makes E85 too expensive. And of course ethanol makes the most sense in the corn belt where it's produced and doesn't need to be hauled hundreds/thousands of miles by truck or rail.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Regardless of how it's made the point remains that it is unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful and unneeded.

When oil hits 150 a barrel, say that again.

Oh, did it prevent it the last time that happened?
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Problem is, so many have little clue how markets work. Ethanol is traded on the commodity exchanges. The Producers have nothing to do with pricing. They get what the market is willing to pay for it, just like oil and refined fuels. It is just like any other commodity. Copper mines don't set copper prices, commodity exchanges do.


Last time the market worked as per Econ 101 we got oil at $30 per barrel. They have since reverted to how markets really work, i.e. trough collusion in creating artificial scarcity.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Having an alternative keeps oil prices a little more stable. I think just about anyone can understand that. Super basic economics.



http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/4/1199/pdf


You have a knack for finding some of the most obscure stuff. What do a few professors in greece know about American farming.
 
What's the latest on oil in ethanol out? It use to be pretty terrible. Basically converting oil into ethanol. The ethanol industry is heavily dependent on oil to produce ethanol. It can't stabilize prices.
 
Day to day price fluctuations can move in tandem. Gas moves with oil. Firewood moves with gas and oil.

I'm saying having a competing product keeps large price spikes from happening. Some power plants switch between oil and gas depending on which is cheaper.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
rather than saying that a link is "obvious economics 101", and high fiving myself, I look at what's out there...

I presume that you know the address of "google.com."

https://www.agmrc.org/renewable-energy/e...ships-changing/
Is your premise that oil was following corn prices ?
https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/ha...ply_of_corn.pdf

Are they American enough for you ?

How can something that's clearly following oil prices be stabilising them ?


The Iowa farms coupled with Dutch owned ethanol plants in and around Iowa make 4x more energy than they consume when taken as a system, USDA and other scholarly entities discuss this.
This compares similarly to oil which uses 25% of the base stock to drill transport and refine
http://www.better-energy-llc.com/well-tank-energy-efficiencies-gasoline-diesel/
In recent years... Also about 5% of oil is lost into the environment if you combine spoilage (oil lost in the wrong soil layer during extraction)
Oil spilled during transport and oil lost to VOC during transport and refining.

Like anything corn ethanol is a tool for a purpose and has a place,
Thankfully most inefficient producers went bankrupt after the ethanol subsidies were removed.
 
I've been running E15 in my vehicles for years with no issues. Year of vehicles is 2002, 2012 and 2016. They are not FF vehicles.

I run E85 at a 50/50 mix in my 2002 Silverado, if I run it straight I get a lean code.

When I had my 2013 Camaro with the 6.2 the tailpipes didn't get black and sooty with I ran E85. They stayed nice and shinny.

I can see older vehicles having issues, especially if they still have a carb.

Here at least, cost per mile is less running E85 which is a win win for me.


I'm lucky and have local stations that carry nonethanol fuel for my lawn equipment.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Rmay635703
Originally Posted By: Shannow
rather than saying that a link is "obvious economics 101", and high fiving myself, I look at what's out there...

I presume that you know the address of "google.com."

https://www.agmrc.org/renewable-energy/e...ships-changing/
Is your premise that oil was following corn prices ?
https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/ha...ply_of_corn.pdf

Are they American enough for you ?

How can something that's clearly following oil prices be stabilising them ?


The Iowa farms coupled with Dutch owned ethanol plants in and around Iowa make 4x more energy than they consume when taken as a system, USDA and other scholarly entities discuss this.
This compares similarly to oil which uses 25% of the base stock to drill transport and refine
http://www.better-energy-llc.com/well-tank-energy-efficiencies-gasoline-diesel/
In recent years... Also about 5% of oil is lost into the environment if you combine spoilage (oil lost in the wrong soil layer during extraction)
Oil spilled during transport and oil lost to VOC during transport and refining.

Like anything corn ethanol is a tool for a purpose and has a place,
Thankfully most inefficient producers went bankrupt after the ethanol subsidies were removed.


Correct me if I am wrong but four time more energy produced than consumed is equal consuming 25% of energy produced. I am pro ethanol but am fairly sure your numbers are bunk.
 
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
[
Correct me if I am wrong but four time more energy produced than consumed is equal consuming 25% of energy produced. I am pro ethanol but am fairly sure your numbers are bunk.


No you've bought into the lie that ethanol costs more energy than it provides. That's the bunk part.

These guys think gasoline gets pumped straight out of the ground. I guess.

There's a lot of energy required in the refining process.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
[
Correct me if I am wrong but four time more energy produced than consumed is equal consuming 25% of energy produced. I am pro ethanol but am fairly sure your numbers are bunk.


No you've bought into the lie that ethanol costs more energy than it provides. That's the bunk part.

These guys think gasoline gets pumped straight out of the ground. I guess.

There's a lot of energy required in the refining process.

. So 1+1= Potato?

I am just questioning the math of the statement. Not the actual truthful numbers.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Rmay635703

This compares similarly to oil which uses 25% of the base stock to drill transport and refine
http://www.better-energy-llc.com/well-tank-energy-efficiencies-gasoline-diesel/


My reading is that the 25% is Canada Oil sands, the most energy intensive way of getting the product....conventional food practice is 20:1.

So you've compared the most efficient ethanol (Iowa) with the least efficient petroleum and declared equality.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Rmay635703

This compares similarly to oil which uses 25% of the base stock to drill transport and refine
http://www.better-energy-llc.com/well-tank-energy-efficiencies-gasoline-diesel/


My reading is that the 25% is Canada Oil sands, the most energy intensive way of getting the product....conventional food practice is 20:1.

So you've compared the most efficient ethanol (Iowa) with the least efficient petroleum and declared equality.



Apples to Oranges

20:1 is light sweet crude (which is all exported) ignoring energy used during exploration, energy used to frac (2/3 of production), energy to transport
And oil wasted to spoilage (which is increasing every year as our infrastructure ages)

Using the 20:1 number is like ignoring crude used to run tractors
 
Originally Posted By: Rmay635703
Apples to Oranges

20:1 is light sweet crude (which is all exported) ignoring energy used during exploration, energy used to frac (2/3 of production), energy to transport
And oil wasted to spoilage (which is increasing every year as our infrastructure ages)

Using the 20:1 number is like ignoring crude used to run tractors


And using 4:1 for both isn't "cherry picking" your apples and oranges ?

Do you still stand by BOTH of those metrics ?

It's like me picking 20 and 0.8, the best and the worst at the other extreme...which I didn't...

https://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/FACULTY/...AnNYAcSci10.pdf



So do you still stand by your 4:1 equality for both corn based ethanol, and gasoline ?

Please link us up with some supporting evidence
 
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