Get ready for E15. The push is real...
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It states this in my owners manual for the ‘17 CX5
“Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the warranty.
Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol.
Fuel
Octane Rating*
(Anti-knock index)
Regular unleaded fuel
87 [(R M)/2 method] or above (91 RON or above)”
This vehicle can only use oxygenated fuels containing no more than 10 % ethanol by volume. Damage to the vehicle may occur when ethanol exceeds this recommendation, or if the gasoline contains any methanol. Stop using gasohol of any kind if your vehicle engine is performing poorly.
Gasohol containing more than 10 % ethanol.
Gasoline or gasohol contai
“Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the warranty.
Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol.
Fuel
Octane Rating*
(Anti-knock index)
Regular unleaded fuel
87 [(R M)/2 method] or above (91 RON or above)”
This vehicle can only use oxygenated fuels containing no more than 10 % ethanol by volume. Damage to the vehicle may occur when ethanol exceeds this recommendation, or if the gasoline contains any methanol. Stop using gasohol of any kind if your vehicle engine is performing poorly.
Gasohol containing more than 10 % ethanol.
Gasoline or gasohol contai
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Because E85 can only be put into cars that have fuel systems that are built for it (Flex Fuel cars). Those cars are a great blessing to automakers trying to meet CAFE standards, because the government only considers the 15% gasoline content in their fuel economy rating. This makes a full-size pickup truck getting 15 MPG on E85 apparently capable of 100 MPG (15 miles driven / .15 gallons of gasoline burned).
That should also mean that the 10% ethanol is excluded when calculating CAFE mpg. And further means that CAFE ratings will go up with E15. This may be the real push behind supporting E15.
There already is a push for 95 octane fuel.
All these changes being pushed onto the driving public are to chase the almighty CAFE mandates, which are artificially chosen. Unfortunately, these changes translate to higher cost per mile for the driving public.
I have heard about automakers advocating for higher octane mass-market fuels:
http://wardsauto.com/engines/automakers-pitch-higher-octane-future?page=2
Here are some quotes from the article:
Quote:
Nicholson, vice president-GM Propulsion Systems, delivers the automakers’ plea to boost the regular-fuel octane level to 95 RON on behalf of the U.S. Council for Automotive Research, a consortium that seeks to strengthen the U.S. auto industry through cooperative research and development.
Higher octane makes gasoline more resistant to compression ignition, or knocking, which can damage engine components. The higher standard would allow automakers to gain more efficiency from ICEs through higher compression ratios needed in today’s smaller-displacement turbocharged and supercharged engines.
There is some fine print in what Nicholson is saying. Before anybody gets excited about 95 octane, they should note the RON designation, which means Research octane, translates roughly into 91 pump octane, according to the way it's rated in the USA. In Europe, the octane numbers posted on the pumps is RON, but in the USA octane numbers posted on the pump is an average of Research and Motor octane. Motor octane is usually 8 points lower than research.
Then the article says compression ratios can be raised, thereby further improving fuel economy. But that isn't as great a thing as it sounds. Thermal efficiency improvement of engines at higher compression ratios doesn't increase as much when going from 10 to 11 as much as it does when going from 8 to 9, for instance. The switch to direct injection over the past 10 years has already brought the most effective increases in CR. Even supercharged and turbocharged engines are running 10:1 CR these days, and naturally aspirated engines are at 11.
More from the article:
Quote:
Fellow SAE panelist David Filipe, Ford vice president-Powertrain Engineering, agrees the time has come to introduce higher-octane fuel as the U.S. standard. He says the increase in cost for higher-octane fuel is estimated at 5 cents per gallon over current 87 RON unleaded regular.
Who out there believes this statement? Everybody in the USA that buys gasoline knows that premium costs about 50-60 cents more per gallon than regular. By what miracle of economics are they going to start selling premium to everybody at only 5 cents per gallon more than regular? My cynical guess is they're going to spike it with a lot more ethanol. At least the OEM's would get higher octane fuel in their boosted, downsized engines, and could sleep better not having to worry so much about LSPI. But the consumer would get screwed by buying fuel that contains less energy than pure gasoline. Owners of older cars would then be condemned to adding Stabil to every tankful.
And here's a little gem that's mildly humorous:
Quote:
Panelist Jeff Lux, FCA head of transmission powertrain, says while 11- and 12-speed automatic transmissions are possible, he believes the current crop of gearboxes in the 7.5- to 10-speed range are optimal, especially given increasing electrification.
Just how does a 7.5-speed transmission work?
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Because E85 can only be put into cars that have fuel systems that are built for it (Flex Fuel cars). Those cars are a great blessing to automakers trying to meet CAFE standards, because the government only considers the 15% gasoline content in their fuel economy rating. This makes a full-size pickup truck getting 15 MPG on E85 apparently capable of 100 MPG (15 miles driven / .15 gallons of gasoline burned).
That should also mean that the 10% ethanol is excluded when calculating CAFE mpg. And further means that CAFE ratings will go up with E15. This may be the real push behind supporting E15.
There already is a push for 95 octane fuel.
All these changes being pushed onto the driving public are to chase the almighty CAFE mandates, which are artificially chosen. Unfortunately, these changes translate to higher cost per mile for the driving public.
I have heard about automakers advocating for higher octane mass-market fuels:
http://wardsauto.com/engines/automakers-pitch-higher-octane-future?page=2
Here are some quotes from the article:
Quote:
Nicholson, vice president-GM Propulsion Systems, delivers the automakers’ plea to boost the regular-fuel octane level to 95 RON on behalf of the U.S. Council for Automotive Research, a consortium that seeks to strengthen the U.S. auto industry through cooperative research and development.
Higher octane makes gasoline more resistant to compression ignition, or knocking, which can damage engine components. The higher standard would allow automakers to gain more efficiency from ICEs through higher compression ratios needed in today’s smaller-displacement turbocharged and supercharged engines.
There is some fine print in what Nicholson is saying. Before anybody gets excited about 95 octane, they should note the RON designation, which means Research octane, translates roughly into 91 pump octane, according to the way it's rated in the USA. In Europe, the octane numbers posted on the pumps is RON, but in the USA octane numbers posted on the pump is an average of Research and Motor octane. Motor octane is usually 8 points lower than research.
Then the article says compression ratios can be raised, thereby further improving fuel economy. But that isn't as great a thing as it sounds. Thermal efficiency improvement of engines at higher compression ratios doesn't increase as much when going from 10 to 11 as much as it does when going from 8 to 9, for instance. The switch to direct injection over the past 10 years has already brought the most effective increases in CR. Even supercharged and turbocharged engines are running 10:1 CR these days, and naturally aspirated engines are at 11.
More from the article:
Quote:
Fellow SAE panelist David Filipe, Ford vice president-Powertrain Engineering, agrees the time has come to introduce higher-octane fuel as the U.S. standard. He says the increase in cost for higher-octane fuel is estimated at 5 cents per gallon over current 87 RON unleaded regular.
Who out there believes this statement? Everybody in the USA that buys gasoline knows that premium costs about 50-60 cents more per gallon than regular. By what miracle of economics are they going to start selling premium to everybody at only 5 cents per gallon more than regular? My cynical guess is they're going to spike it with a lot more ethanol. At least the OEM's would get higher octane fuel in their boosted, downsized engines, and could sleep better not having to worry so much about LSPI. But the consumer would get screwed by buying fuel that contains less energy than pure gasoline. Owners of older cars would then be condemned to adding Stabil to every tankful.
And here's a little gem that's mildly humorous:
Quote:
Panelist Jeff Lux, FCA head of transmission powertrain, says while 11- and 12-speed automatic transmissions are possible, he believes the current crop of gearboxes in the 7.5- to 10-speed range are optimal, especially given increasing electrification.
Just how does a 7.5-speed transmission work?
If the government was mandating that there be 85% gasoline in the fuel people would be so outraged and demand that they be free to burn e100 whenever they want.
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I had never seen an E15 pump until about a month ago while in the city. If I had an E85 compatible vehicle, sure I'd use it.
*Folks here claimed to not take a MPG hit between that and E10. I guess out west in more corn producing areas than Indiana, they have E20 and so on? There's an ethanol processing plant about 30 minutes from my house by the way.. Lol.
*Folks here claimed to not take a MPG hit between that and E10. I guess out west in more corn producing areas than Indiana, they have E20 and so on? There's an ethanol processing plant about 30 minutes from my house by the way.. Lol.
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Originally Posted By: PimTac
It states this in my owners manual for the ‘17 CX5
“Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the warranty.
Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol.
Fuel
Octane Rating*
(Anti-knock index)
Regular unleaded fuel
87 [(R M)/2 method] or above (91 RON or above)”
This vehicle can only use oxygenated fuels containing no more than 10 % ethanol by volume. Damage to the vehicle may occur when ethanol exceeds this recommendation, or if the gasoline contains any methanol. Stop using gasohol of any kind if your vehicle engine is performing poorly.
Gasohol containing more than 10 % ethanol.
Gasoline or gasohol contai
And for that, I'd actually be ragging on Mazda. Not sure how it is even legal to sell a vehicle that cannot use fuel EPA has deemed legal for use in all vehicles made after 2001. The stuff that was made before this decision was approved I give a pass to, but for a 2017 vehicle to not meet it is absurd... (whether you agree or disagree with the E15 in the first place - its legal, available, and displayed as OK).
It states this in my owners manual for the ‘17 CX5
“Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the warranty.
Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol.
Fuel
Octane Rating*
(Anti-knock index)
Regular unleaded fuel
87 [(R M)/2 method] or above (91 RON or above)”
This vehicle can only use oxygenated fuels containing no more than 10 % ethanol by volume. Damage to the vehicle may occur when ethanol exceeds this recommendation, or if the gasoline contains any methanol. Stop using gasohol of any kind if your vehicle engine is performing poorly.
Gasohol containing more than 10 % ethanol.
Gasoline or gasohol contai
And for that, I'd actually be ragging on Mazda. Not sure how it is even legal to sell a vehicle that cannot use fuel EPA has deemed legal for use in all vehicles made after 2001. The stuff that was made before this decision was approved I give a pass to, but for a 2017 vehicle to not meet it is absurd... (whether you agree or disagree with the E15 in the first place - its legal, available, and displayed as OK).
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I wish some politician or gov bureaucrat would slap those farmers and their interest back down and just tell them NO!!!
Take your corn and shove it where the sun don't shine. NO CORN IN OUR GAS TANKS!
Should have voted for Cruz. There is a video on YouTube of him convincing a corn farmer that the ethanol subsidy hurts farmers in the long run.
I wish some politician or gov bureaucrat would slap those farmers and their interest back down and just tell them NO!!!
Take your corn and shove it where the sun don't shine. NO CORN IN OUR GAS TANKS!
Should have voted for Cruz. There is a video on YouTube of him convincing a corn farmer that the ethanol subsidy hurts farmers in the long run.
Would one of you guys that is always ragging on ethanol subsidies to farmer go educate yourselves and find out what blender credits are?
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True, many manufacturers do not approve use of any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If we are forced to run E15, that is going to start a cr#p storm of government lawsuits, and rightly so. I can't even believe it's being discussed, do they even know how many older vehicles are still on the road? Vehicles made at a time before Ethanol blends were available? And these older vehicles are *often owned by those with lower-income, the last people who can afford a hike in fuel prices? Yes, ethanol does reduce emissions as intended. But seriously, 10% is enough. They will probably get around this litigation by continuing to sell E10 (or E0), but at a huge markup.
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I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about. E15 has been available in a lot of places for a while. E10 is always offered as a choice next to it, because it's always clearly labeled never to use it in pre 2001 cars or cars not designed for it. It is not possible for lawmakers to entirely force E15 while not maintaining E10 or E0...there are just too many cars on the road that would be seriously damaged. The manufacturers don't approve E15 for these vehicles and that would go against EPA ratings to make them use it.
E15 88 octane has been available for a while here. It is clearly marked on the pump. If you are too stupid and grab the wrong handle...well, you needed a slap in the face anyway.
I would happily use E15 or E85 if it was just priced competitively for the same BTU content...but it never is. Thus making it a complete failure.
I will say it's great for refilling rental cars and U-hauls regardless of what they are rated for before you turn them back in.
E15 88 octane has been available for a while here. It is clearly marked on the pump. If you are too stupid and grab the wrong handle...well, you needed a slap in the face anyway.
I would happily use E15 or E85 if it was just priced competitively for the same BTU content...but it never is. Thus making it a complete failure.
I will say it's great for refilling rental cars and U-hauls regardless of what they are rated for before you turn them back in.
Its easy to say that the pumps are clearly labeled. To be blunt, there are some retailers that have done an OK job with that here, and some that have done a terrible job. The label is so far away from the pump that nobody is ever going to see it.
And the reality is that most people don't pay any attention to anything other than the price when they pull up to a gas pump...
And the reality is that most people don't pay any attention to anything other than the price when they pull up to a gas pump...
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
And the reality is that most people don't pay any attention to anything other than the price when they pull up to a gas pump...
I guess they need to be taught a lesson. It's not only labeled as "warning" E15, it's also labeled as 88 octane instead of 87 which should raise an eyebrow, and even worse...it comes out of a completely different nozzle that is a different color! *sigh*
Do we have the same problem with people filling their gas tanks with DEF?
And the reality is that most people don't pay any attention to anything other than the price when they pull up to a gas pump...
I guess they need to be taught a lesson. It's not only labeled as "warning" E15, it's also labeled as 88 octane instead of 87 which should raise an eyebrow, and even worse...it comes out of a completely different nozzle that is a different color! *sigh*
Do we have the same problem with people filling their gas tanks with DEF?
Originally Posted By: OilFilters
I guess they need to be taught a lesson. It's not only labeled as "warning" E15, it's also labeled as 88 octane instead of 87 which should raise an eyebrow, and even worse...it comes out of a completely different nozzle that is a different color! *sigh*
Do we have the same problem with people filling their gas tanks with DEF?
Except the nozzle is the same size as the other unleaded gasolines, right? I don't think criticizing others for putting in 88 octane is valid, many owner's manuals state 87 or above so while that is an indicator for you and me maybe, it surely isn't for some people.
Color doesn't mean much either. Sure diesel is usually green but there isn't a legal standard for handle color. As far as I'm concerned it is much too easy to confuse the E15 on the pump. Generally here it isn't segregated off to the side or anything, it's right in between the regular and premium grades. Is the DEF nozzle the same size, right between two grades of gasoline and on the same pump?
You seem to like calling people "stupid" and needing to be "taught a lesson" or "slapped". What is your agenda here?
I guess they need to be taught a lesson. It's not only labeled as "warning" E15, it's also labeled as 88 octane instead of 87 which should raise an eyebrow, and even worse...it comes out of a completely different nozzle that is a different color! *sigh*
Do we have the same problem with people filling their gas tanks with DEF?
Except the nozzle is the same size as the other unleaded gasolines, right? I don't think criticizing others for putting in 88 octane is valid, many owner's manuals state 87 or above so while that is an indicator for you and me maybe, it surely isn't for some people.
Color doesn't mean much either. Sure diesel is usually green but there isn't a legal standard for handle color. As far as I'm concerned it is much too easy to confuse the E15 on the pump. Generally here it isn't segregated off to the side or anything, it's right in between the regular and premium grades. Is the DEF nozzle the same size, right between two grades of gasoline and on the same pump?
You seem to like calling people "stupid" and needing to be "taught a lesson" or "slapped". What is your agenda here?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Is the DEF nozzle the same size, right between two grades of gasoline and on the same pump?
Yes, it is the same size, and yes, it's often in the same place as other nozzles. Especially for diesel pumps, the DEF is always right next to it with a nozzle that will fit any diesel tank. Is everybody complaining that they accidentally filled their diesel tank with DEF?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You seem to like calling people "stupid" and needing to be "taught a lesson" or "slapped". What is your agenda here?
I believe that stupid people need to be taught things, that's why they're stupid. Often they must learn the hard way.
If you can't manage to pump your own gas correctly, how can we trust you to be driving safely on the roads in a multi ton piece of steel??
If having options is a bad thing, we need to get rid of all the different grades of oil available at any store. Most people don't know the difference, how many people grab the wrong thing?
To be honest, accidentally filling up with E15 is not that big of deal. Probably won't even notice especially when you're putting it on top of other gas that was already in the tank. I filled a Kia rental car half full of E85 (on purpose) even though it was most certainly not a flex fuel vehicle. It worked fine.
Is the DEF nozzle the same size, right between two grades of gasoline and on the same pump?
Yes, it is the same size, and yes, it's often in the same place as other nozzles. Especially for diesel pumps, the DEF is always right next to it with a nozzle that will fit any diesel tank. Is everybody complaining that they accidentally filled their diesel tank with DEF?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You seem to like calling people "stupid" and needing to be "taught a lesson" or "slapped". What is your agenda here?
I believe that stupid people need to be taught things, that's why they're stupid. Often they must learn the hard way.
If you can't manage to pump your own gas correctly, how can we trust you to be driving safely on the roads in a multi ton piece of steel??
If having options is a bad thing, we need to get rid of all the different grades of oil available at any store. Most people don't know the difference, how many people grab the wrong thing?
To be honest, accidentally filling up with E15 is not that big of deal. Probably won't even notice especially when you're putting it on top of other gas that was already in the tank. I filled a Kia rental car half full of E85 (on purpose) even though it was most certainly not a flex fuel vehicle. It worked fine.
Originally Posted By: OilFilters
I believe that stupid people need to be taught things, that's why they're stupid. Often they must learn the hard way.
If you can't manage to pump your own gas correctly, how can we trust you to be driving safely on the roads in a multi ton piece of steel??
If having options is a bad thing, we need to get rid of all the different grades of oil available at any store. Most people don't know the difference, how many people grab the wrong thing?
To be honest, accidentally filling up with E15 is not that big of deal. Probably won't even notice especially when you're putting it on top of other gas that was already in the tank. I filled a Kia rental car half full of E85 (on purpose) even though it was most certainly not a flex fuel vehicle. It worked fine.
I'd say nearly everyone at the gas station knows the difference between regular, mid and premium grade gasolines. I'd also venture they also know the difference between diesel and gasoline as well. What they may not know is that the middle pump that is ill-marked as being E15 is not to be put into vehicles built prior to 2001. Despite your apparently superior cognitive abilities, I don't think everyone is quite as observant as you believe yourself to be. I think it could be confusing and should be labeled or marked better than it is considering it's not really just another "option" like the other two or three gasolines on the same pump.
But that's just my opinion, OilFilters.
I believe that stupid people need to be taught things, that's why they're stupid. Often they must learn the hard way.
If you can't manage to pump your own gas correctly, how can we trust you to be driving safely on the roads in a multi ton piece of steel??
If having options is a bad thing, we need to get rid of all the different grades of oil available at any store. Most people don't know the difference, how many people grab the wrong thing?
To be honest, accidentally filling up with E15 is not that big of deal. Probably won't even notice especially when you're putting it on top of other gas that was already in the tank. I filled a Kia rental car half full of E85 (on purpose) even though it was most certainly not a flex fuel vehicle. It worked fine.
I'd say nearly everyone at the gas station knows the difference between regular, mid and premium grade gasolines. I'd also venture they also know the difference between diesel and gasoline as well. What they may not know is that the middle pump that is ill-marked as being E15 is not to be put into vehicles built prior to 2001. Despite your apparently superior cognitive abilities, I don't think everyone is quite as observant as you believe yourself to be. I think it could be confusing and should be labeled or marked better than it is considering it's not really just another "option" like the other two or three gasolines on the same pump.
But that's just my opinion, OilFilters.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
What they may not know is that the middle pump that is ill-marked as being E15 is not to be put into vehicles built prior to 2001. Despite your apparently superior cognitive abilities, I don't think everyone is quite as observant as you believe yourself to be.
Every station I've seen it at is WELL marked. And there are far too many people in today's society that need to be more observant - so maybe this is a great way to teach them a well needed lesson.
If "clueless people might use the wrong grade" is the best argument you can come up with against E15, you need to come up with something better.
What they may not know is that the middle pump that is ill-marked as being E15 is not to be put into vehicles built prior to 2001. Despite your apparently superior cognitive abilities, I don't think everyone is quite as observant as you believe yourself to be.
Every station I've seen it at is WELL marked. And there are far too many people in today's society that need to be more observant - so maybe this is a great way to teach them a well needed lesson.
If "clueless people might use the wrong grade" is the best argument you can come up with against E15, you need to come up with something better.
There are no standards for different colored fuel handles to differentiate different fuel products. (BP used to use green handles for regular 87 E10 fuel here and everyone knows that color is for Diesel, right?) My previous employer had red, black, green, and yellow pump handles, all distributing the same fuel product.
The Kwik Trip I visited the other day had two black handled pumps (87 Octane E10, 88 Octane E15) and one Red Handled Pump (91 Octane E0). It had tiny octane labels on the top of the pump receiver. The only label for the E15 was an orange label placed below waist level next to a larger standard octane sticker, and interestingly stated for Flex Fuel Vehicles only - it wasn't even the 2001 type sticker. The other Kwik Trips I've been to are better (and correctly) marked. The holiday stations I've seen are not marked well at all.
The Kwik Trip I visited the other day had two black handled pumps (87 Octane E10, 88 Octane E15) and one Red Handled Pump (91 Octane E0). It had tiny octane labels on the top of the pump receiver. The only label for the E15 was an orange label placed below waist level next to a larger standard octane sticker, and interestingly stated for Flex Fuel Vehicles only - it wasn't even the 2001 type sticker. The other Kwik Trips I've been to are better (and correctly) marked. The holiday stations I've seen are not marked well at all.
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