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#4640726 - 01/20/18 09:00 AM Great video on lubrication engineering
Deerslayer Offline


Registered: 06/04/16
Posts: 5
Loc: Mississippi

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#4640761 - 01/20/18 09:25 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Deerslayer]
Indydriver Offline


Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 2156
Loc: Indiana
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?
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#4640766 - 01/20/18 09:30 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Deerslayer]
Deerslayer Offline


Registered: 06/04/16
Posts: 5
Loc: Mississippi
He covers quite a few more topics in the other 38 minutes of video

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#4640897 - 01/20/18 11:42 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Indydriver]
SilverFusion2010 Offline


Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1665
Loc: Crawfordville FL
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff
_________________________
2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30

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#4641231 - 01/20/18 06:03 PM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Deerslayer]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
I nearly turned it off at the startup wear/flow , but sat through it.

I give him a solid 7.5/10.

It IS worth a listen provided you weed out a couple of those things, and also note that he's talking racing.

Some pearls that the average BITOGer needs to understand, and he makes the point.
* NASCAR run 20s, to reduce friction/make power. it's not just a retrofit into older small blocks, it was enabled by the technology to microfinish parts.
* clearances and oil pressures on the big ends and rods, versus viscosity, and failures in early adopters of thin.
* Viscosity index is good...provided you can get there without VII.
* Cams and pston ring life is additive dependent.(*)
* Drag cars on 0W5, NASCAR on 0W20, dirt track on 20W50 in addition to the above have different operating regimes, and cooling...that needs to be taken into account.

(*) He's a bit fixated on flow, but again in the context of different forms of racing, he's got some points, particularly related to valvetrain.
* some racing series have multiple heats and small number of laps...his premise is that volume flow rate to the cams is important there.
* Valve spring and rocker arm life (in series with stock rockers) has to do with cooling, which he equated with flow, but then goes on to explain that front left valve gear get trashed in circle track. My take there is the flow up the pushrod is the same for each of those locations, it's the amount of pooling that's giving the cooling effect...more flow might help 'though.

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#4641240 - 01/20/18 06:11 PM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: SilverFusion2010]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff


Yep, that's one of the holes in his presentation, the statement multiple times about the oil getting there quicker, and 70% of wear is at startup, and the statement that residual oil doesn't help.

But he nearly gets there when talking about side leakage and oil pressure.


There's clearly a difference, and certainly more so on cold oil...enough to make a difference when running the ragged edge of spring pressures and cam profiles ?

maybe

But again, it's the warmup phase, not the gallery filling time that he uses a few times.

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#4644595 - 01/24/18 03:32 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It IS worth a listen provided you weed out a couple of those things, and also note that he's talking racing.

The picture of the Ferrari F1 car is precious, too. Joe Gibbs annual oil revenues are probably less than what Shell pays to the Ferrari team for sponsorship. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4644700 - 01/24/18 07:21 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: SilverFusion2010]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13661
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff



Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Edited by tig1 (01/24/18 07:22 AM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 227,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 49K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
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#4644703 - 01/24/18 07:29 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: tig1]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: tig1
Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???

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#4644704 - 01/24/18 07:29 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Shannow]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Are you not really advanced (i.e 1978) AI ???

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#4644712 - 01/24/18 07:43 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Shannow]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13661
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
[quote=tig1]Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???

It simply shows the time lag with oil flow to the upper end of an engine, at least for me. Again this demo is at the extrems of oil wt and temp. I get that, but I have experienced this myself in my own engines many years ago in -20F temps using 10-40 oils. Thanks for asking.

Gerald


Edited by tig1 (01/24/18 07:46 AM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 227,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 49K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters


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#4644715 - 01/24/18 07:49 AM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: tig1]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
[quote=tig1]Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???

It simply shows the time lag with oil flow to the upper end of an engine, at least for me. Again this demo is at the extrems of oil wt and temp. I get that, but I have experienced this myself in my own engines many years ago in -20F temps using 10-40 oils. Thanks for asking.

Gerald


Yeah, but the quoted video was about starting and racing engines under various conditions, NOT about starting an engine 30F below it's rated temperature range.

Wasn't it ?

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#4644994 - 01/24/18 01:30 PM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Deerslayer]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13661
Loc: Illinois
I was referring to SilverFusion's comment and the Esso video, nothing to do about the OP's video. Sorry you were confused.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 227,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 49K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters


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#4645112 - 01/24/18 03:31 PM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: tig1]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: tig1
s. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

Note that SilverFusion2010 pointed used the qualifier, "[a]s long as the oil is pumpable...." In the video in question, one of the oils was not pumpable.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4645201 - 01/24/18 05:17 PM Re: Great video on lubrication engineering [Re: Garak]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13661
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: tig1
s. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

Note that SilverFusion2010 pointed used the qualifier, "[a]s long as the oil is pumpable...." In the video in question, one of the oils was not pumpable.


Note the video I provided compared 0-30 synthetic to 10-30 dino(lots of wax in the oil) and was pumpable at 6:40-7:00 or so. Normally folks claim 10-30 dino flows(pumpable) great even at very cold temps. Not sure what you mean one of the oils was not pumpable?


Edited by tig1 (01/24/18 05:21 PM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 227,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 49K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters


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