0 oil pressure for 10 seconds

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Something else to ponder here; if a spec sheet for a oil says its pumping limit is -35F for example that doesn’t mean the oil will follow that spec to exactly -35F. I’m guessing there might be some variance in oil batches and so on. So you could have temps at -25F and that oil will be having difficulties. It is not an exact science.

I may be be wrong but is not the variance around 10%?


The spec sheets don't indicate pump limits, they indicate, if provided, the viscosity results at the predefined testing temperatures for the Winter designation the oil claims. A 5w-30's MRV is tested at -35C/-31F. There is no guarantee that it doesn't gel just a few degrees below that. It failed the 0w-30 designation either on CCS or MRV, which is why it isn't branded as such.

Performance also degrades in service, and IIRC (and Shannow can correct me if I'm wrong) but an oil is allowed to slip a W-rating over its service life.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: littleant
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why change your oil again if you're going to replace it with something similarly rated @ 5W? Isn't the whole issue that you want to change to something more pumpable? It makes no sense to change the oil for comfort reasons during the 1% of the year you'll make -32F starts, only to select for what 'runs quiet' in your engine at normal temperatures. That's what you have in the crankcase right now! Are you only now paranoid about the additives? Ironically, the small amount of MoS2 coating the parts probably rendered that no-pressure event insignificant. If you want to tackle the -35 startup issue instead of quietness issues like your post suggests, choose 0W-30, not 5w30. Personally, if startup is acceptable at -25, I'd leave the current fill alone and leave yet another 5w30 on the shelf. Remember, the ridiculous eccentric movement of the "polar vortex" is only transient for us in the slightly southern latitudes.
I hear what you are saying. These temperatures are going to last into next week here. And then there is February. I may give 0W-30 a shot and or go with the oil pan Heater. Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different. This is the longest but not coldest cold snap I have seen in 30 years. The coldest -42 with wind chill -61 just for 2 days.


A Euro 0w-30 or 0w-40 with no additives would be an excellent choice, with a tested pumping limit of -40C/-40F. I would recommend Castrol Edge 0w-40 or Mobil 1 0w-40.

As I mentioned, and perhaps you missed, your Jeep's 4.0L is particularly sensitive to viscosity at the lower end of the pumping range. Also, if you take a look at the paper I linked, you can see that MRV visc increases massively once you approach the limit. An oil that passes at -25C could hit 100,000cP at the next 5 degree lower tick, rendering it unpumpable due to wax crystal formation. A PAO-based synthetic doesn't have that problem.

Specifically, as noted in the paper, your Jeep's 4.0L is better tested as per the old J300 standard for MRV, which had a limit of 30,000cP instead of the present 60,000cP. The results with this engine are significant enough that they are often omitted from testing because it skews the results so badly.

Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 has a tested MRV visc of 21,600cP at -40C/-40F, making it an excellent choice.
Thanks overkill that was an interesting read. The first thing I am getting is the oil pan heater The issue I am having is as others have noted is when I tried full synthetic castrol edge 5w-30 when I first purchased 5 years ago the engine had some piston slap and was pretty loud with the synthetic. Went with maxlife and or defy and it worked great. Very little noise at startup and no noise after warm up. Now I have close to 170,000 miles and still runs great. A rock and a hard place choose noise or bad cold start up. Years past no issue starting BUT the jeep was in the garage. Now the 2010 mountaineer is there (super clean summer rig) with a loan

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: littleant
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why change your oil again if you're going to replace it with something similarly rated @ 5W? Isn't the whole issue that you want to change to something more pumpable? It makes no sense to change the oil for comfort reasons during the 1% of the year you'll make -32F starts, only to select for what 'runs quiet' in your engine at normal temperatures. That's what you have in the crankcase right now! Are you only now paranoid about the additives? Ironically, the small amount of MoS2 coating the parts probably rendered that no-pressure event insignificant. If you want to tackle the -35 startup issue instead of quietness issues like your post suggests, choose 0W-30, not 5w30. Personally, if startup is acceptable at -25, I'd leave the current fill alone and leave yet another 5w30 on the shelf. Remember, the ridiculous eccentric movement of the "polar vortex" is only transient for us in the slightly southern latitudes.
I hear what you are saying. These temperatures are going to last into next week here. And then there is February. I may give 0W-30 a shot and or go with the oil pan Heater. Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different. This is the longest but not coldest cold snap I have seen in 30 years. The coldest -42 with wind chill -61 just for 2 days.


A Euro 0w-30 or 0w-40 with no additives would be an excellent choice, with a tested pumping limit of -40C/-40F. I would recommend Castrol Edge 0w-40 or Mobil 1 0w-40.

As I mentioned, and perhaps you missed, your Jeep's 4.0L is particularly sensitive to viscosity at the lower end of the pumping range. Also, if you take a look at the paper I linked, you can see that MRV visc increases massively once you approach the limit. An oil that passes at -25C could hit 100,000cP at the next 5 degree lower tick, rendering it unpumpable due to wax crystal formation. A PAO-based synthetic doesn't have that problem.

Specifically, as noted in the paper, your Jeep's 4.0L is better tested as per the old J300 standard for MRV, which had a limit of 30,000cP instead of the present 60,000cP. The results with this engine are significant enough that they are often omitted from testing because it skews the results so badly.

Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 has a tested MRV visc of 21,600cP at -40C/-40F, making it an excellent choice.
Thanks overkill that was an interesting read. The first thing I am getting is the oil pan heater The issue I am having is as others have noted is when I tried full synthetic castrol edge 5w-30 when I first purchased 5 years ago the engine had some piston slap and was pretty loud with the synthetic. Went with maxlife and or defy and it worked great. Very little noise at startup and no noise after warm up. Now I have close to 170,000 miles and still runs great. A rock and a hard place choose noise or bad cold start up. Years past no issue starting BUT the jeep was in the garage. Now the 2010 mountaineer is there (super clean summer rig) with a loan

Which is why I recommended a slightly heavier Euro oil, which I would hope would help prevent that noise

 

[littleant]

Thanks overkill. Walmart has it up here near me (well 50 mile round trip yea my closest neighbor is a moose) Was surprised good price $22.00 for 5 qt jug.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
wemay was kind enough to share a PDS for Pennzoil Gold 5W30 that SOPUS emailed to him (it's also online now) that showed this blend having excellent CCS/MRV results for its grade. I was a little wary about using a blend in my turbo, but am running it now as it had the d1G2 license I was looking for and the cold properties appealed to me.

I understand your caution in your choice. It is good to know, though, that the ILSAC conventional options aren't just barely passing the 5w- requirements of the grade, too, for those who use them. And, as you mention, the dexos1 synthetic blends have their place. I gather shops find a lot more use for them than do most BITOGers, with the possible exception of MaxLife, which has always been about the easiest blend to find with the license.

 

[Shannow]

I'm still fixated on what the GrI liquimoly is bringing to the equation.

Here's my 3 samples at -15C...apologies for the ice on the bottles, by the time i got the third bottle ice free, the first was icing up and I didn't want to heat them up too much rubbing them.

Left is 5W30, middle same oil with moly, right plain old SAE30.

the middle one is nothing like the 5W30 that it was made from, not as bad as the SAE30, but there's a marked difference between the plain 5W30 and the additised.

 

[littleant]

Just wanted to update on the jeep. -44 degrees last night. But first what would you chose Kat's lower hose heater or kats oil pan heater. My only concern is engine protection. I believe water heater will not have an effect on the oil. 200 or 300 Watt oil pan heater can I expect at -30 the oil would be at least 50 degrees in an hour or two ??. On to the jeep. Yes -44 last night. Waited till 10 am temp was -25. That night I placed 3 oil bottles on the hood of the jeep. Castrol 5w-30 edge. Val maxlife 5w-30. QSUD 5w-30.Liqui Moly MOS2. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement Concentrate zinc. Pulled the dipstick oil was not gray from moly (1/4 bottle used) oil was thick and when squeezed between my fingers it stringed up about 1/2 inch. Castrol 5w-30 edge was thick and stringed up the same as did maxlife and the QSUD that surprised me a little I thought the a synthetic would be better in the cold but I guess they are all 5w. Shaking the bottles they sounded the same except the castrol you could hardly hear it. Liquid moly would not flow out of the bottle super thick. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement zinc poured right out of the bottle. Must use a real thin Carrier oil. Poured all oil's on a flat piece of aluminum and none of the oils flattened out except the Rislone. Tilted the aluminum all oils did run to the edge but slow except the Rislone got to the edge quick. So I believe the Rislone would have no effect on the thickness of the oil. Nothing scientific here just an observation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Just wanted to update on the jeep. -44 degrees last night. But first what would you chose Kat's lower hose heater or kats oil pan heater. My only concern is engine protection. I believe water heater will not have an effect on the oil. 200 or 300 Watt oil pan heater can I expect at -30 the oil would be at least 50 degrees in an hour or two ??. On to the jeep. Yes -44 last night. Waited till 10 am temp was -25. That night I placed 3 oil bottles on the hood of the jeep. Castrol 5w-30 edge. Val maxlife 5w-30. QSUD 5w-30.Liqui Moly MOS2. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement Concentrate zinc. Pulled the dipstick oil was not gray from moly (1/4 bottle used) oil was thick and when squeezed between my fingers it stringed up about 1/2 inch. Castrol 5w-30 edge was thick and stringed up the same as did maxlife and the QSUD that surprised me a little I thought the a synthetic would be better in the cold but I guess they are all 5w. Shaking the bottles they sounded the same except the castrol you could hardly hear it. Liquid moly would not flow out of the bottle super thick. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement zinc poured right out of the bottle. Must use a real thin Carrier oil. Poured all oil's on a flat piece of aluminum and none of the oils flattened out except the Rislone. Tilted the aluminum all oils did run to the edge but slow except the Rislone got to the edge quick. So I believe the Rislone would have no effect on the thickness of the oil. Nothing scientific here just an observation.


Supports Shannow's observations above about the Liqui-Moly.

I'd pick up the 0w-40, maybe do the same test with it for S&G's?

Would have been funnier to see your observations at -44 though, LOL!

 

[Shannow]

Observations are all good...you've done well.

 

[littleant]

Thanks guys. The knowledge here on bitog is incredible. From simple explanations to very detailed. First place I go in the morning last place at night. Great reading. 12 above zero tonight. Never Though I say that. All changes on Thursday snow storm and -20 to -30 into next week.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Thanks guys. The knowledge here on bitog is incredible. From simple explanations to very detailed. First place I go in the morning last place at night. Great reading. 12 above zero tonight. Never Though I say that. All changes on Thursday snow storm and -20 to -30 into next week.

 

[PimTac]

This indeed has been a great discussion. -44F is testing the limits of any oil in my opinion plus testing the limits of anything mechanical or human. Stay safe.

 

[Garak]

It's hard to say which to pick in an either/or situation. If it were me, given our conditions, I'd have no reason not to use both, and have used both in the past.

On the other hand, you're not here, and it all depends how far you're willing to go. Block heaters (or other types of coolant heaters) do a very good job (they really don't heat the oil, of course), but if they're not factory, they're going to take a little more work to get installed. But, it is a permanent solution that is ready to go at a moment's notice. The same applies to a stick on oil pan heater.

A magnetic oil pan heater, however, isn't necessarily ready all the time, and will heat the oil, which is what you want. It also takes very little preparation, but maybe a bit of discomfort. You want to use it, you get on the ground, slide under your vehicle enough to put it on and plug it in, and you're away, without touching a frost plug, a coolant hose, or glue. Just don't misplace it in the summer, which is another potential disadvantage.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
This indeed has been a great discussion. -44F is testing the limits of any oil in my opinion plus testing the limits of anything mechanical or human. Stay safe.
Could not have said it better.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: Garak
It's hard to say which to pick in an either/or situation. If it were me, given our conditions, I'd have no reason not to use both, and have used both in the past.

On the other hand, you're not here, and it all depends how far you're willing to go. Block heaters (or other types of coolant heaters) do a very good job (they really don't heat the oil, of course), but if they're not factory, they're going to take a little more work to get installed. But, it is a permanent solution that is ready to go at a moment's notice. The same applies to a stick on oil pan heater.

A magnetic oil pan heater, however, isn't necessarily ready all the time, and will heat the oil, which is what you want. It also takes very little preparation, but maybe a bit of discomfort. You want to use it, you get on the ground, slide under your vehicle enough to put it on and plug it in, and you're away, without touching a frost plug, a coolant hose, or glue. Just don't misplace it in the summer, which is another potential disadvantage.

Agree. It's all about the oil. Thank you

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Garak
It's hard to say which to pick in an either/or situation. If it were me, given our conditions, I'd have no reason not to use both, and have used both in the past.

On the other hand, you're not here, and it all depends how far you're willing to go. Block heaters (or other types of coolant heaters) do a very good job (they really don't heat the oil, of course), but if they're not factory, they're going to take a little more work to get installed. But, it is a permanent solution that is ready to go at a moment's notice. The same applies to a stick on oil pan heater.

A magnetic oil pan heater, however, isn't necessarily ready all the time, and will heat the oil, which is what you want. It also takes very little preparation, but maybe a bit of discomfort. You want to use it, you get on the ground, slide under your vehicle enough to put it on and plug it in, and you're away, without touching a frost plug, a coolant hose, or glue. Just don't misplace it in the summer, which is another potential disadvantage.

I'm actually not sure where my magnetic oil pan heater is at the moment...only used it on my car once or twice, but it came in really handy for my daughter's science experiment once.
Not so handy for its intended purpose for me because I park my car a good 60 feet or so from a plug when it's outside at home...much further than that when we're skiing.

 

[bigt61]

Oil pan heater is all you need. Your oil is fine. Skip the additives in the future. Plug a trickle maintenance charger in at the same time to give the battery a boost at startup.

 

[jeepman3071]

Why do you feel you need to use additives in the oil?

My Jeep 4.0 has only used conventional oil for most of it's life. I run Pennzoil conventional and had a UOA with single digit iron wear numbers with Pennzoil 10w30. For your climate a good 0w30 is probably best if you are really concerned about cold start up wear. I once cold started my Jeep at 10 degrees with 10w30 oil, and popped the oil cap to watch for oil on the valvetrain. It was amazing to me how long it took before I actually saw oil up there, and the oil light went off a second after starting. Use a factory sized filter (not oversized) and some good 0w30 and you should be giving it the best start up protection possible besides using an oil pan heater.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Why do you feel you need to use additives in the oil?

My Jeep 4.0 has only used conventional oil for most of it's life. I run Pennzoil conventional and had a UOA with single digit iron wear numbers with Pennzoil 10w30. For your climate a good 0w30 is probably best if you are really concerned about cold start up wear. I once cold started my Jeep at 10 degrees with 10w30 oil, and popped the oil cap to watch for oil on the valvetrain. It was amazing to me how long it took before I actually saw oil up there, and the oil light went off a second after starting. Use a factory sized filter (not oversized) and some good 0w30 and you should be giving it the best start up protection possible besides using an oil pan heater.

Thank you. Never used additives when Quaker State defy 5w30 was conventional. Now everything seems to be going Synthetic blend. My 02 has some piston slap goes away when warn and is quite. Only additive I ever added was a little zinc using high mileage Val or QS when they went to Synthetic blend. Liquid moly last oil change just a little. Gets nice reviews on bitog. At -30 to -45 I believe was just to darn cold. What year jeep do you have and any piston slap?

 

[littleant]

Quick update. 12 degrees last night. Heat wave. Jeep started great 3-4 seconds full oil pressure. No noise than a little slap as usual after running about 1-2 minutes. At operating temp about 5-7 minutes dead quite. Took the jeep up the interstate to get the oil pan heater. Ran her 50-60 mph. No noise. May have Dodge a bullet. Got the Kat's 300 watts. Picked up 0-40 oil and fram ultra. This weekend temps will be in the minus -30 to -35 range. Will try the pan heater then to see if it warms the oil to start the jeep with good pressure before oil change.