0 oil pressure for 10 seconds

[CleverUserName]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Does anyone believe that adding 1/4 bottle of Liqui Moly MOS2 would thicken a 6qt oil capacity of 5w-30 to the point of no oil pressure for 10 second's??


No, that’s less than 1/4 of the recommended dosage.That stuff is suspended in a thin oil base, I don’t see how it could thicken any oil at such a small ratio.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: littleant
Does anyone believe that adding 1/4 bottle of Liqui Moly MOS2 would thicken a 6qt oil capacity of 5w-30 to the point of no oil pressure for 10 second's??


No, that’s less than 1/4 of the recommended dosage.That stuff is suspended in a thin oil base, I don’t see how it could thicken any oil at such a small ratio.


The thing with mixing stuff is that you have no idea what it's going to do, particularly at the bottom end of the temperature scale...you definitely can't say that it IMPROVED the cold startability.

The base oils in the additives aren't tested for cold weather gelling...the oils that they are added ARE, but not in the presence of any additives, which could well be adding waxy elements of their own.

Couple of percent biodiesel (for example) can mess with the gellation of diesel engine oils, altering pour point and MRV...

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: littleant
Does anyone believe that adding 1/4 bottle of Liqui Moly MOS2 would thicken a 6qt oil capacity of 5w-30 to the point of no oil pressure for 10 second's??


No, that’s less than 1/4 of the recommended dosage.That stuff is suspended in a thin oil base, I don’t see how it could thicken any oil at such a small ratio.


The thing with mixing stuff is that you have no idea what it's going to do, particularly at the bottom end of the temperature scale...you definitely can't say that it IMPROVED the cold startability.

The base oils in the additives aren't tested for cold weather gelling...the oils that they are added ARE, but not in the presence of any additives, which could well be adding waxy elements of their own.

Couple of percent biodiesel (for example) can mess with the gellation of diesel engine oils, altering pour point and MRV...

You are right I cannot say it IMPROVED the cold startability on the contrary. Before adding it, at -25 I had oil pressure in 4 seconds. Thank you I will drain oil and change filter. Funny when I added the Rislone Engine Oil Supplement zinc just 5oz it had no effect on starting. Hope I can find some old quaker state defy conventional SL/SM. The jeep just loved that oil So quite. Or QSUD problem is the jeep is noisy on full synthetic. But maybe it will be good. I use it in My 2010 mountaineer 4.0 and no noise in that engine.

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: littleant
Does anyone believe that adding 1/4 bottle of Liqui Moly MOS2 would thicken a 6qt oil capacity of 5w-30 to the point of no oil pressure for 10 second's??


No, that’s less than 1/4 of the recommended dosage.That stuff is suspended in a thin oil base, I don’t see how it could thicken any oil at such a small ratio.


The thing with mixing stuff is that you have no idea what it's going to do, particularly at the bottom end of the temperature scale...you definitely can't say that xit IMPROVED the cold startability.

The base oils in the additives aren't tested for cold weather gelling...the oils that they are added ARE, but not in the presence of any additives, which could well be adding waxy elements of their own.

Couple of percent biodiesel (for example) can mess with the gellation of diesel engine oils, altering pour point and MRV...

 

[PeterPolyol]

Why change your oil again if you're going to replace it with something similarly rated @ 5W? Isn't the whole issue that you want to change to something more pumpable? It makes no sense to change the oil for comfort reasons during the 1% of the year you'll make -32F starts, only to select for what 'runs quiet' in your engine at normal temperatures. That's what you have in the crankcase right now! Are you only now paranoid about the additives? Ironically, the small amount of MoS2 coating the parts probably rendered that no-pressure event insignificant. If you want to tackle the -35 startup issue instead of quietness issues like your post suggests, choose 0W-30, not 5w30. Personally, if startup is acceptable at -25, I'd leave the current fill alone and leave yet another 5w30 on the shelf. Remember, the ridiculous eccentric movement of the "polar vortex" is only transient for us in the slightly southern latitudes.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Does anyone believe that adding 1/4 bottle of Liqui Moly MOS2 would thicken a 6qt oil capacity of 5w-30 to the point of no oil pressure for 10 second's??

Read some of the studies out there as to what even residual factory fill did to the cold weather properties of subsequent service fills, I believe in a Honda situation. Also, with respect to the notion that the additives have a thin carrier base, even an SAE 20 is not suitable for cold weather starting. As I already mentioned most additives likely use a monograde or very cheap multigrade as a carrier. A monograde, no matter how light, isn't going to help cold weather performance. An additive may not cause too many problems, or it may cause no end of problems. Additives don't tend to advertise their SAE J300 performance, so they're making no testable promises about much of anything - no surprise, there.

I understand the desire to use a moly additive, or a zinc additive; whether I agree or disagree with the desire is irrelevant. However, if you're getting yourself near the limits of cold weather performance for the oil in question in the first place, you might have to take other measures to compensate, such as the suggestion of an oil pan heater.

My experience in cold weather is to usually not rely simply on one thing, particularly when you get down the these limits, and when you have a vehicle that might have certain problematic characteristics in the first place. I had an LPG powered LTD for years, and that thing highlighted cold weather weaknesses in a hurry. Poor oil choice, no go. No plug in, no go. Weak battery, no go.

A 0w-XX doesn't eliminate winter all on its own, nor does a block heater, or oil pan heater, good fuel, or a good battery. You get two or three of those things together, and you'll be able to handle most weather conditions. If you want to make the most of your oil flow, an oil pan heater will go far beyond what viscosity choice will do for you.

If you want a synthetic, try a 0w-30 A3/B4 or 0w-40 A3/B4, see if it helps quiet things down. I would think MaxLife 5w-30, although SN/GF-5, is a sensible option, too.

I know that some don't like synthetic blends, but there are reasons for them, and MaxLife is a very good example of that.

 

[Shannow]

Checked the MSDS for liquimoly...the carrier is a solvent dexaxed (GrI) oil, and the viscosity is about that of an SAE30.

the Rislone ZDDP treatment doesn't say, but viscosity is in SAE20 ballpark, but the 103 VI and the -24C pour point hint at GrI as well.

Not saying it's definitely the factor, but it WILL be carrying wax into the equation.

 

[littleant]

 

[littleant]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why change your oil again if you're going to replace it with something similarly rated @ 5W? Isn't the whole issue that you want to change to something more pumpable? It makes no sense to change the oil for comfort reasons during the 1% of the year you'll make -32F starts, only to select for what 'runs quiet' in your engine at normal temperatures. That's what you have in the crankcase right now! Are you only now paranoid about the additives? Ironically, the small amount of MoS2 coating the parts probably rendered that no-pressure event insignificant. If you want to tackle the -35 startup issue instead of quietness issues like your post suggests, choose 0W-30, not 5w30. Personally, if startup is acceptable at -25, I'd leave the current fill alone and leave yet another 5w30 on the shelf. Remember, the ridiculous eccentric movement of the "polar vortex" is only transient for us in the slightly southern latitudes.
I hear what you are saying. These temperatures are going to last into next week here. And then there is February. I may give 0W-30 a shot and or go with the oil pan Heater. Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different. This is the longest but not coldest cold snap I have seen in 30 years. The coldest -42 with wind chill -61 just for 2 days.

 

[PimTac]

Something else to ponder here; if a spec sheet for a oil says its pumping limit is -35F for example that doesn’t mean the oil will follow that spec to exactly -35F. I’m guessing there might be some variance in oil batches and so on. So you could have temps at -25F and that oil will be having difficulties. It is not an exact science.

I may be be wrong but is not the variance around 10%?

 

[MParr]

Look at the PDS on Mobil 1 High Mileage oils. The oil pan heater is a good idea.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I may be be wrong but is not the variance around 10%?

I wouldn't consider that unreasonable. Additionally, MRV performance is expected to get worse over an OCI, not better, so mileage and contaminants don't help, either.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I may be be wrong but is not the variance around 10%?


Close...
http://www.pentasflora.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/D4684-MRV.pdf

repeatbility (same machine, same operator) 6.3%. Reproducability (different machine different operator) is 8.2%.

Plus an oil can slip a grade in service and still be "in grade".

So it pays to pick something that is well withing grade to start with.

 

[Shannow]

To the OP...

I've been messing around in the freezer today (dollar store had some tiny mason jars that are perfect for it).

Took some 5W30 (Helix Ultra AG - ACEAR C3, DEXOS 2), same oil with 15% 25W60 Nulon as an "additive", and the 5W30 with a dash of Liquimoly (had some in the shed). (plus one of SAE30, and another of 25W60 straight).

Freezer is onlt around -15C, but the moly equipped oil is behaving more like the SAE30 than the 5W30.

If you've still got the ingredients, leave two jars out overnight, one just oil, one with moly, and see which shakes better in the morning.

 

[PimTac]

Garak and Shannow, thanks for the information.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different.

I just caught this part. The trip from -30 to -40 is no picnic, either. In fact, it's worse.

PimTac: It's pretty interesting to look at a few numbers just for nitpicking's sake. Usually, the ILSAC varieties of a grade will beat the non-ILSAC version (i.e. comparing a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 versus a 5w-30 A3/B4). There are a couple varieties, too, that are some of the better performers within the grade. As I recall, Petro-Canada's 5w-30 conventional is pretty amazing as far as conventionals go, and Amsoil has some pretty solid performers, too.

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
To the OP...

I've been messing around in the freezer today (dollar store had some tiny mason jars that are perfect for it).

Took some 5W30 (Helix Ultra AG - ACEAR C3, DEXOS 2), same oil with 15% 25W60 Nulon as an "additive", and the 5W30 with a dash of Liquimoly (had some in the shed). (plus one of SAE30, and another of 25W60 straight).

Freezer is onlt around -15C, but the moly equipped oil is behaving more like the SAE30 than the 5W30.

If you've still got the ingredients, leave two jars out overnight, one just oil, one with moly, and see which shakes better in the morning.


Off on a tangent here, how do you find the SHU AG Professional 5w30? Running it in my missus Dacia Duster and it seems like a decent oil. Was planning on running the engine on M1 ESP 5w30 for the foreseeable but questioning if it's worth spending the extra £15 for 5 litres.

Would love to see a NOACK being it's GTL base oil.

 

[Shannow]

Got 3 5L bottles on clearance for $41.50 (Oz) each at the local Repco just after getting the Captiva...was less than half price...should have bought out the red coolant as well.

Can't really tell anything about it sans the price and specs.

Holden put a new cam, rockers and lifters in the engine 100km before the oil change so can't even comment about noise.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: littleant
Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different.

I just caught this part. The trip from -30 to -40 is no picnic, either. In fact, it's worse.

PimTac: It's pretty interesting to look at a few numbers just for nitpicking's sake. Usually, the ILSAC varieties of a grade will beat the non-ILSAC version (i.e. comparing a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 versus a 5w-30 A3/B4). There are a couple varieties, too, that are some of the better performers within the grade. As I recall, Petro-Canada's 5w-30 conventional is pretty amazing as far as conventionals go, and Amsoil has some pretty solid performers, too.


wemay was kind enough to share a PDS for Pennzoil Gold 5W30 that SOPUS emailed to him (it's also online now) that showed this blend having excellent CCS/MRV results for its grade. I was a little wary about using a blend in my turbo, but am running it now as it had the d1G2 license I was looking for and the cold properties appealed to me. I would have liked to know its NOACK loss, but I know it should be 13% or less and that is OK...the flashpoint was pretty high for the Gold and that comforted me somewhat, although I know there isn't a hard correlation between NOACK loss and flashpoint.
I honestly wonder how much of a blend this product is...it was actually more expensive in the end for me than running PPPP 5W30 as the Gold had no rebate and I would have gotten $10 back for the synthetic, would have been about $13 net for a jug of the latter compared to $18 for the former. I was not really impressed by the PDS for the PPPP 5W30, although I'm sure it would have been fine for my car.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why change your oil again if you're going to replace it with something similarly rated @ 5W? Isn't the whole issue that you want to change to something more pumpable? It makes no sense to change the oil for comfort reasons during the 1% of the year you'll make -32F starts, only to select for what 'runs quiet' in your engine at normal temperatures. That's what you have in the crankcase right now! Are you only now paranoid about the additives? Ironically, the small amount of MoS2 coating the parts probably rendered that no-pressure event insignificant. If you want to tackle the -35 startup issue instead of quietness issues like your post suggests, choose 0W-30, not 5w30. Personally, if startup is acceptable at -25, I'd leave the current fill alone and leave yet another 5w30 on the shelf. Remember, the ridiculous eccentric movement of the "polar vortex" is only transient for us in the slightly southern latitudes.
I hear what you are saying. These temperatures are going to last into next week here. And then there is February. I may give 0W-30 a shot and or go with the oil pan Heater. Crazy how the starting between -20 and -30 can be so different. This is the longest but not coldest cold snap I have seen in 30 years. The coldest -42 with wind chill -61 just for 2 days.


A Euro 0w-30 or 0w-40 with no additives would be an excellent choice, with a tested pumping limit of -40C/-40F. I would recommend Castrol Edge 0w-40 or Mobil 1 0w-40.

As I mentioned, and perhaps you missed, your Jeep's 4.0L is particularly sensitive to viscosity at the lower end of the pumping range. Also, if you take a look at the paper I linked, you can see that MRV visc increases massively once you approach the limit. An oil that passes at -25C could hit 100,000cP at the next 5 degree lower tick, rendering it unpumpable due to wax crystal formation. A PAO-based synthetic doesn't have that problem.

Specifically, as noted in the paper, your Jeep's 4.0L is better tested as per the old J300 standard for MRV, which had a limit of 30,000cP instead of the present 60,000cP. The results with this engine are significant enough that they are often omitted from testing because it skews the results so badly.

Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 has a tested MRV visc of 21,600cP at -40C/-40F, making it an excellent choice.