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#4535548 - 10/06/17 04:04 PM What exactly is LL-01?
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 1488
Loc: Canada
A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?
_________________________
BITOG or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Extended OCI

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#4535557 - 10/06/17 04:19 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111]
THafeez Offline


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 651
Loc: New Jersey
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.
_________________________
2004 Toyota Solara SE 2.4 2AZFE
175,000 miles
Valvoline Synpower Maxlife 5W30
Royal Purple 20-400 oversize

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#4535559 - 10/06/17 04:21 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111]
JohnnyJohnson Online   content


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2731
Loc: Wet side WA
I drive a Toyota I don't need LL-01 but it sure sounds like a good reason for Walmart to drop Rollback to $20.88.
_________________________
2004 Toyota Corolla 121598
Out: QSUD 5W-30 Purolator One 5030
In: Valvoline ML 5w-30 TG4967 117530 2-8-18
2006 Duramax 74016
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73752 4-22-18

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#4535581 - 10/06/17 04:44 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: JohnnyJohnson]
FZ1 Offline


Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 4727
Loc: Texas
Different strokes. I'm thinkin' we all need to use the latest/best spec oils in our engines. Cleaner running is better for longevity. .02.

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#4535586 - 10/06/17 04:48 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11204
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?

BMW LL-01 is a set of requirements defined by BMW for their own engines. It's basically just ACEA A3/B4 (really rigorous and comprehensive spec) plus some testing in BMW engines.

Check out this PDF from Afton Chemical. BMW LL-01 is covered on page 129. ACEA A3/B4 is covered on pages 75 through 80.

Yes, part of LL-01 is to guarantee the OCI. But it also covers wear, deposit control, shear stability, foaming, etc. etc. etc. -- lots of stuff that can't be compensated for by just shortening your OCI. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives that'd work just as well with shorter OCIs; it's just hard to tell what they are without testing.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4535588 - 10/06/17 04:51 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11204
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think Mobil has to pay for the certification

Correct.

Originally Posted By: THafeez
and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

Incorrect. There are still TONS of BMW-approved oils from companies other than Pennzoil.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4535873 - 10/07/17 01:02 AM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: d00df00d]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
@ d00df00d : thanks, good post.
Finally answered the OP's question.
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4535911 - 10/07/17 05:46 AM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4458
Loc: Down Under
Quote:
the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway


Oz still gets the old formula M1 0W40 with a HTHS of 3.8 cP, not the new M1 0W40 FS with a HTHS of 3.6 cP. Two different oils with (almost) the same name.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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#4535992 - 10/07/17 08:07 AM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24574
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

The thing is, though, there still are Mobil varieties with LL-01, such as Mobil Super 3000 5w-40. Is Mobil expressing their displeasure? Or, do they simply not care about LL-01 any longer? Unless Mobil and/or BMW say something concrete, we'll never know. Even if they do say something, will they be in agreement and will it be correct?

Of course, there are also other varieties with LL-01, so it's not like BMW is only allowing Shell products to carry the certification.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4536348 - 10/07/17 04:33 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 6996
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Despite all the hypothesis thrown around about why M1 doesn't meet it anymore, the fact is M1 does not meet the spec and others like Castrol do. If I had a BMW I'd use Castrol for that reason alone.
_________________________
09 Lincoln MKZ AWD 91k - M1 AFE 0w30
12 KIA Sedona 86k - Edge 0w40
09 Ford Focus 129k - GTX UltraClean 5w30
00 Chevy Lumina 195k - Supertech FS HM 5w30
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee gone but not forgotten...

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#4536355 - 10/07/17 04:40 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: KCJeep]
4WD Online   confused


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6362
Loc: Texas
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ... so of course folks speculating is normal on a pay to play subject ...
Ford bovine output regarding HDEO is another

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#4536558 - 10/07/17 09:22 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: 4WD]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24574
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4WD
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ...

Yes. It's interesting to note that the Mobil Super 3000 product I referenced is a bulk only product, too. Maybe they don't feel like annoying the independent Euro shops.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4536654 - 10/07/17 11:14 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 1488
Loc: Canada
Apart from the wear test LL-01 is the same as ACEA A3/B4. What are the chances that A3/B4 oil with MB, VW, and Porsche certifications would not pass the wear test?
_________________________
BITOG or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Extended OCI

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#4536689 - 10/07/17 11:54 PM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5027
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

BMW charges approval process/testing like all other companies.
I was involved in testing and certification of VW 504.00/507.00oil, and VW charged 3,200 euros for certification.
Car companies do not make money granting approvals. It is actually in their interest to have as many oils approved as possible because that makes maintenance of their cars easier and more appealing.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4536840 - 10/08/17 07:29 AM Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez]
4WD Online   confused


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6362
Loc: Texas
Go to exxonmobil.com.sg

Thatís a massive operation in Sípore Ö at the bottom you can find the gold bottle 0w40 with BMW and the other German brands ... Bet thatís sold in Oz Ö looks like what I found online in Melbourne a few weeks back.
Have seen (and rode in) a number of German cars in Sípore as wellÖ

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