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What exactly is LL-01? #4535548
10/06/17 04:04 PM
10/06/17 04:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,657
Canada
camrydriver111 Offline OP
camrydriver111  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,657
Canada
A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?


BITOG or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Extended OCI
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111] #4535557
10/06/17 04:19 PM
10/06/17 04:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 654
New Jersey
THafeez Offline
THafeez  Offline
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 654
New Jersey
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.


2004 Toyota Solara SE 2.4 2AZFE
182,000 miles
Castrol Magnatec Semi-Syn 5W30
Royal Purple 20-400 oversize 2nd run
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111] #4535559
10/06/17 04:21 PM
10/06/17 04:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,220
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Online content
JohnnyJohnson  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,220
Wet side WA
I drive a Toyota I don't need LL-01 but it sure sounds like a good reason for Walmart to drop Rollback to $20.88.


2004 Corolla 124805
Out: VML 5w-30 TG4967 OCI 5007 Miles
In: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 122537 7-18-18
2006 Duramax 74277
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 74705 4-22-18
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #4535581
10/06/17 04:44 PM
10/06/17 04:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
FZ1 Offline
FZ1  Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
Different strokes. I'm thinkin' we all need to use the latest/best spec oils in our engines. Cleaner running is better for longevity. .02.

Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111] #4535586
10/06/17 04:48 PM
10/06/17 04:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,364
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,364
PA
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?

BMW LL-01 is a set of requirements defined by BMW for their own engines. It's basically just ACEA A3/B4 (really rigorous and comprehensive spec) plus some testing in BMW engines.

Check out this PDF from Afton Chemical. BMW LL-01 is covered on page 129. ACEA A3/B4 is covered on pages 75 through 80.

Yes, part of LL-01 is to guarantee the OCI. But it also covers wear, deposit control, shear stability, foaming, etc. etc. etc. -- lots of stuff that can't be compensated for by just shortening your OCI. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives that'd work just as well with shorter OCIs; it's just hard to tell what they are without testing.


2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez] #4535588
10/06/17 04:51 PM
10/06/17 04:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,364
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,364
PA
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think Mobil has to pay for the certification

Correct.

Originally Posted By: THafeez
and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

Incorrect. There are still TONS of BMW-approved oils from companies other than Pennzoil.


2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: d00df00d] #4535873
10/07/17 01:02 AM
10/07/17 01:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline
zveroboy  Offline
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
@ d00df00d : thanks, good post.
Finally answered the OP's question.


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez] #4535911
10/07/17 05:46 AM
10/07/17 05:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Quote:
the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway


Oz still gets the old formula M1 0W40 with a HTHS of 3.8 cP, not the new M1 0W40 FS with a HTHS of 3.6 cP. Two different oils with (almost) the same name.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez] #4535992
10/07/17 08:07 AM
10/07/17 08:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,369
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Online content
Garak  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,369
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

The thing is, though, there still are Mobil varieties with LL-01, such as Mobil Super 3000 5w-40. Is Mobil expressing their displeasure? Or, do they simply not care about LL-01 any longer? Unless Mobil and/or BMW say something concrete, we'll never know. Even if they do say something, will they be in agreement and will it be correct?

Of course, there are also other varieties with LL-01, so it's not like BMW is only allowing Shell products to carry the certification.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111] #4536348
10/07/17 04:33 PM
10/07/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,058
Mahzurrah!
KCJeep Offline
KCJeep  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,058
Mahzurrah!
Despite all the hypothesis thrown around about why M1 doesn't meet it anymore, the fact is M1 does not meet the spec and others like Castrol do. If I had a BMW I'd use Castrol for that reason alone.


09 Lincoln MKZ AWD 97k - M1 AFE 0w30
12 KIA Sedona 91k - PP HM 10w30
09 Ford Focus 131k - Supertech FS HM 5w30
00 Chev Lumina 201k - Supertech FS HM 5w30
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee gone but not forgotten.
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: KCJeep] #4536355
10/07/17 04:40 PM
10/07/17 04:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,000
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,000
Texas
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ... so of course folks speculating is normal on a pay to play subject ...
Ford bovine output regarding HDEO is another

Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: 4WD] #4536558
10/07/17 09:22 PM
10/07/17 09:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,369
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Online content
Garak  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,369
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4WD
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ...

Yes. It's interesting to note that the Mobil Super 3000 product I referenced is a bulk only product, too. Maybe they don't feel like annoying the independent Euro shops.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: camrydriver111] #4536654
10/07/17 11:14 PM
10/07/17 11:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,657
Canada
camrydriver111 Offline OP
camrydriver111  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,657
Canada
Apart from the wear test LL-01 is the same as ACEA A3/B4. What are the chances that A3/B4 oil with MB, VW, and Porsche certifications would not pass the wear test?


BITOG or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Extended OCI
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez] #4536689
10/07/17 11:54 PM
10/07/17 11:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,270
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,270
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

BMW charges approval process/testing like all other companies.
I was involved in testing and certification of VW 504.00/507.00oil, and VW charged 3,200 euros for certification.
Car companies do not make money granting approvals. It is actually in their interest to have as many oils approved as possible because that makes maintenance of their cars easier and more appealing.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: What exactly is LL-01? [Re: THafeez] #4536840
10/08/17 07:29 AM
10/08/17 07:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,000
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,000
Texas
Go to exxonmobil.com.sg

Thatís a massive operation in Sípore Ö at the bottom you can find the gold bottle 0w40 with BMW and the other German brands ... Bet thatís sold in Oz Ö looks like what I found online in Melbourne a few weeks back.
Have seen (and rode in) a number of German cars in Sípore as wellÖ

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