2017 CR-V EX - oil decision for LSPI
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If it was my car, I would stay with the manufacturers recommendation of 0W-20.
I get it folks will recommend a 0W-30 to help battle shearing and fuel dilution, but it is not a manufacturer spec.
My 2 cents.
I get it folks will recommend a 0W-30 to help battle shearing and fuel dilution, but it is not a manufacturer spec.
My 2 cents.
I haven’t seen it on the labels ?
Originally Posted By: parshisa
All Mobil oils are gen 2 approved. Go with 0w30 and enjoy the car
Unless you actually see the dexos1 Gen2 logo on the front of the bottle or jug, you can't be sure you're getting LSPI-tested, timing-chain-tested oil. Could be old stock on the shelves for all we know.
And, the official list of dexos1 Gen2 oils at http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/ does not list any Mobil1 full syns (although Mobil Super Synthetics are there).
Although not on the official list website, nor on the bottle labels yet, Mobil's website says Mobil1 Annual Protection, M1 EP, and regular M1 are Gen2. Your claim of the M1 0w30 AFE being Gen2 needs to be verified because Mobil says it is not, the offical list says it is not, and the bottles don't show the new Gen2 logo. ...............Where did you see or hear the 0w30 has it?
All Mobil oils are gen 2 approved. Go with 0w30 and enjoy the car
Unless you actually see the dexos1 Gen2 logo on the front of the bottle or jug, you can't be sure you're getting LSPI-tested, timing-chain-tested oil. Could be old stock on the shelves for all we know.
And, the official list of dexos1 Gen2 oils at http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/ does not list any Mobil1 full syns (although Mobil Super Synthetics are there).
Although not on the official list website, nor on the bottle labels yet, Mobil's website says Mobil1 Annual Protection, M1 EP, and regular M1 are Gen2. Your claim of the M1 0w30 AFE being Gen2 needs to be verified because Mobil says it is not, the offical list says it is not, and the bottles don't show the new Gen2 logo. ...............Where did you see or hear the 0w30 has it?
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: np6000
Originally Posted By: Danh
OEMs are aware of LSPI and tune their engines to make it nearly impossible to occur, even when using the high-calcium formulations on the market today. So while a Dexos1 Gen 2 oil is a good choice, it isn't essential for engine health.
I wish this was true but it isn't. I am aware of at least one OEM where the above statement is not true.
Good for the OP to take a proactive approach to minimize the risk of damage due to LSPI. Might be difficult to avoid low engine speed and high engine load conditions due to the CVT transmission, it will be heavily dependent on the transmission calibration and the engine LSPI detection and mitigation strategy.
In the early days of a new engine, OEMs can be surprised. I assume you're referring to Subaru, which did have issues several years back, learned from the experience and fixed things. But I've not heard of a single LSPI failure for Honda's 1.5T and, given their prodigious levels of fuel dilution, it sure seems Honda has anticipated the issue and erred far on the side of caution.
And technically, LSPI is far too random and sudden to be "detected" while driving in time to prevent a problem. Instead, OEMs identify operating conditions where LSPI might occur and richen the mixture whenever similar conditions occur during operation, knowing full well LSPI will only occur in a fraction of these situations.
I wasn't referring to Subaru, but I recall a stop sale a few years back due to failing ring lands, maybe that is what you are referring to? I didn't follow that issue very closely.
With regards to LSPI detection, there are two methods that I am aware of for sensing pre ignition before it occurs. One is madza's ion sensing in the coil assembly.
I think you are right about Honda mitigation method for lspi, Honda typically runs high levels of fuel enrichment for component protection, though there has to be a response by the control system if lspi is detected. The strategy to prevent lspi is different than the strategy that senses and prevents reoccurrence of lspi. Lspi is stochastic in nature, so prevention is not a surety and detection and the subsequent response are critical in order to prevent engine damage.
Originally Posted By: np6000
Originally Posted By: Danh
OEMs are aware of LSPI and tune their engines to make it nearly impossible to occur, even when using the high-calcium formulations on the market today. So while a Dexos1 Gen 2 oil is a good choice, it isn't essential for engine health.
I wish this was true but it isn't. I am aware of at least one OEM where the above statement is not true.
Good for the OP to take a proactive approach to minimize the risk of damage due to LSPI. Might be difficult to avoid low engine speed and high engine load conditions due to the CVT transmission, it will be heavily dependent on the transmission calibration and the engine LSPI detection and mitigation strategy.
In the early days of a new engine, OEMs can be surprised. I assume you're referring to Subaru, which did have issues several years back, learned from the experience and fixed things. But I've not heard of a single LSPI failure for Honda's 1.5T and, given their prodigious levels of fuel dilution, it sure seems Honda has anticipated the issue and erred far on the side of caution.
And technically, LSPI is far too random and sudden to be "detected" while driving in time to prevent a problem. Instead, OEMs identify operating conditions where LSPI might occur and richen the mixture whenever similar conditions occur during operation, knowing full well LSPI will only occur in a fraction of these situations.
I wasn't referring to Subaru, but I recall a stop sale a few years back due to failing ring lands, maybe that is what you are referring to? I didn't follow that issue very closely.
With regards to LSPI detection, there are two methods that I am aware of for sensing pre ignition before it occurs. One is madza's ion sensing in the coil assembly.
I think you are right about Honda mitigation method for lspi, Honda typically runs high levels of fuel enrichment for component protection, though there has to be a response by the control system if lspi is detected. The strategy to prevent lspi is different than the strategy that senses and prevents reoccurrence of lspi. Lspi is stochastic in nature, so prevention is not a surety and detection and the subsequent response are critical in order to prevent engine damage.
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I have read two studies, where moly did have impact on reducing LSPI.
Thanks. OK, now I see it: " Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. " -- https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp
That makes me feel better about just dumping in 1/2 can (15 ml) of LM MOS2 in my tiny 1.5L turbo '18 Equinox!
150 ml of it (at 4,365 ppm moly) raises the concentration in a 5-quart sump to about 200 ppm, around triple what you normally have in many synthetics which have the typical 70 ppm.
On the CR-V this thread is talking about, Schaeffers does use a lot of moly, so it has an LSPI reduction effect. They have used 300 ppm of moly in their 9000-series 5w30 grade in the past, so the 0w20 probably follows that same formulation theme (Micron Moly brand name).
I have read two studies, where moly did have impact on reducing LSPI.
Thanks. OK, now I see it: " Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. " -- https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp
That makes me feel better about just dumping in 1/2 can (15 ml) of LM MOS2 in my tiny 1.5L turbo '18 Equinox!
150 ml of it (at 4,365 ppm moly) raises the concentration in a 5-quart sump to about 200 ppm, around triple what you normally have in many synthetics which have the typical 70 ppm.
On the CR-V this thread is talking about, Schaeffers does use a lot of moly, so it has an LSPI reduction effect. They have used 300 ppm of moly in their 9000-series 5w30 grade in the past, so the 0w20 probably follows that same formulation theme (Micron Moly brand name).
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: parshisa
All Mobil oils are gen 2 approved. Go with 0w30 and enjoy the car
Unless you actually see the dexos1 Gen2 logo on the front of the bottle or jug, you can't be sure you're getting LSPI-tested, timing-chain-tested oil. Could be old stock on the shelves for all we know.
And, the official list of dexos1 Gen2 oils at http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/ does not list any Mobil1 full syns (although Mobil Super Synthetics are there).
Although not on the official list website, nor on the bottle labels yet, Mobil's website says Mobil1 Annual Protection, M1 EP, and regular M1 are Gen2. Your claim of the M1 0w30 AFE being Gen2 needs to be verified because Mobil says it is not, the offical list says it is not, and the bottles don't show the new Gen2 logo. ...............Where did you see or hear the 0w30 has it?
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars. My memory is that M1 0W30 AFE is at least a low calcium formulation (unlike their non-AFE 0W40), but I have never seen a detailed analysis of it with things like NOACK loss and have never been serious about buying it as a result. At least you know dexos oils have less than 13% NOACK loss.
Mobil shows dexos1 Gen 2 licenses for the applicable grades in their standard, EP, and AP lines, but the only one that shows up on the master list for Gen 2 is the standard M1 5W30. I can't explain this discrepancy, but I would assume that M1 is not lying and was comfortable with buying M1 5W30 AP with a Gen 2 license # on the back (but not a Gen 2 logo on the front) for my DIT engine. The M1 and EP 5W30s I saw on the shelves recently at WM still had the old dexos1 license #s, the only oils I have seen so far with the Gen 2 logo on the front are Valvoline Synpower 5W30 and Maxlife 5W30. I know another poster here has seen Gen 2 RP at WM and I'm sure many other makers will have Gen 2 products showing up on shelves in the coming months.
Originally Posted By: parshisa
All Mobil oils are gen 2 approved. Go with 0w30 and enjoy the car
Unless you actually see the dexos1 Gen2 logo on the front of the bottle or jug, you can't be sure you're getting LSPI-tested, timing-chain-tested oil. Could be old stock on the shelves for all we know.
And, the official list of dexos1 Gen2 oils at http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/ does not list any Mobil1 full syns (although Mobil Super Synthetics are there).
Although not on the official list website, nor on the bottle labels yet, Mobil's website says Mobil1 Annual Protection, M1 EP, and regular M1 are Gen2. Your claim of the M1 0w30 AFE being Gen2 needs to be verified because Mobil says it is not, the offical list says it is not, and the bottles don't show the new Gen2 logo. ...............Where did you see or hear the 0w30 has it?
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars. My memory is that M1 0W30 AFE is at least a low calcium formulation (unlike their non-AFE 0W40), but I have never seen a detailed analysis of it with things like NOACK loss and have never been serious about buying it as a result. At least you know dexos oils have less than 13% NOACK loss.
Mobil shows dexos1 Gen 2 licenses for the applicable grades in their standard, EP, and AP lines, but the only one that shows up on the master list for Gen 2 is the standard M1 5W30. I can't explain this discrepancy, but I would assume that M1 is not lying and was comfortable with buying M1 5W30 AP with a Gen 2 license # on the back (but not a Gen 2 logo on the front) for my DIT engine. The M1 and EP 5W30s I saw on the shelves recently at WM still had the old dexos1 license #s, the only oils I have seen so far with the Gen 2 logo on the front are Valvoline Synpower 5W30 and Maxlife 5W30. I know another poster here has seen Gen 2 RP at WM and I'm sure many other makers will have Gen 2 products showing up on shelves in the coming months.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars.
GM recommends 0w30 in my '18 Equinox Owners Manual if its really cold outside and you have the 2.0T engine (mine has the 1.5T with 0w20 as its oil). One could miss that unless they read the OM, which most people don't of course. Past model years have had the "If cold, then 0w30." clause as well.
"Viscosity Grade
For the LYX 1.5L turbo engine, use:
. Dexos1 approved ACDelco Full
Synthetic 0W20 engine oil.
. Dexos1 approved Mobil 1 Full
Synthetic 0W20 engine oil.
. Or any other 0W20 engine oil
meeting dexos1 second
generation requirements.
Use SAE 5W-30 viscosity grade
engine oil for the LTG 2.0L turbo
engine. Cold Temperature
Operation: In an area of extreme
cold, where the temperature falls
below −29 °C (−20 °F), an SAE
0W-30 oil may be used. An oil of
this viscosity grade will provide
easier cold starting for the engine at
extremely low temperatures."
Although, if I read the Owner's Manual words carefully, it sounds like Gen1 is fine as long as the brand is AC-Delco or Mobil1, which would include 0w20 AFE M1. And by extension 0w30 AFE M1 (??) for the 2.0T engine here. After all, as you pointed out, M1 AFE has Mg detergents to lower Ca ppm.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Mobil shows dexos1 Gen 2 licenses for the applicable grades in their standard, EP, and AP lines, but the only one that shows up on the master list for Gen 2 is the standard M1 5W30.
The master list only has "Mobil Super Synthetic", which is a notch lower in quality than regular M1 and not the same oil. It might be the same as the Mobil-supplied AC-Delco oil, but I'm not certain of that.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
the only oils I have seen so far with the Gen 2 logo on the front are Valvoline Synpower 5W30 and Maxlife 5W30. I know another poster here has seen Gen 2 RP at WM and I'm sure many other makers will have Gen 2 products showing up on shelves in the coming months.
I've seen Valvoline Synpower 5w30, 5w20, and 0w20; and SuperTech 5w30 as Gen2 oils on the shelf clearly marked. Others have spotted the RP as you mentioned. They are coming in. Still a lot of recent old stock Gen 1's out there.
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars.
GM recommends 0w30 in my '18 Equinox Owners Manual if its really cold outside and you have the 2.0T engine (mine has the 1.5T with 0w20 as its oil). One could miss that unless they read the OM, which most people don't of course. Past model years have had the "If cold, then 0w30." clause as well.
"Viscosity Grade
For the LYX 1.5L turbo engine, use:
. Dexos1 approved ACDelco Full
Synthetic 0W20 engine oil.
. Dexos1 approved Mobil 1 Full
Synthetic 0W20 engine oil.
. Or any other 0W20 engine oil
meeting dexos1 second
generation requirements.
Use SAE 5W-30 viscosity grade
engine oil for the LTG 2.0L turbo
engine. Cold Temperature
Operation: In an area of extreme
cold, where the temperature falls
below −29 °C (−20 °F), an SAE
0W-30 oil may be used. An oil of
this viscosity grade will provide
easier cold starting for the engine at
extremely low temperatures."
Although, if I read the Owner's Manual words carefully, it sounds like Gen1 is fine as long as the brand is AC-Delco or Mobil1, which would include 0w20 AFE M1. And by extension 0w30 AFE M1 (??) for the 2.0T engine here. After all, as you pointed out, M1 AFE has Mg detergents to lower Ca ppm.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Mobil shows dexos1 Gen 2 licenses for the applicable grades in their standard, EP, and AP lines, but the only one that shows up on the master list for Gen 2 is the standard M1 5W30.
The master list only has "Mobil Super Synthetic", which is a notch lower in quality than regular M1 and not the same oil. It might be the same as the Mobil-supplied AC-Delco oil, but I'm not certain of that.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
the only oils I have seen so far with the Gen 2 logo on the front are Valvoline Synpower 5W30 and Maxlife 5W30. I know another poster here has seen Gen 2 RP at WM and I'm sure many other makers will have Gen 2 products showing up on shelves in the coming months.
I've seen Valvoline Synpower 5w30, 5w20, and 0w20; and SuperTech 5w30 as Gen2 oils on the shelf clearly marked. Others have spotted the RP as you mentioned. They are coming in. Still a lot of recent old stock Gen 1's out there.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars.
GM recommends 0w30 in my '18 Equinox Owners Manual if its really cold outside and you have the 2.0T engine (mine has the 1.5T with 0w20 as its oil). One could miss that unless they read the OM, which most people don't of course. Past model years have had the "If cold, then 0w30." clause as well.
...
The master list only has "Mobil Super Synthetic", which is a notch lower in quality than regular M1 and not the same oil. It might be the same as the Mobil-supplied AC-Delco oil, but I'm not certain of that.
Good info on GM and 0W30, I appreciate the correction. I guess I don't know why I don't see any dexos1 0W30 oils, then.
I do have to beg to differ with you on the dexos1 Gen 2 master list, it does show M1 5W30 all by its lonesome self from that product line.
"Mobil 1 - ExxonMobil Oil Corporation - dexos1™ Gen 2 - 5W-30 - D10104GH015 - Global"
Dashes added by me for clarity...I have no idea why no other M1 oils are listed there. The XOM website shows M1 5W30 AP with a similar Gen 2 license #D10110GH015, for example. As you mentioned, tons of Mobil Super oils on that list...???? WTH?
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I don't think there will be any 0W30 dexos1 Gen 2 oils simply because GM does not seem to recommend that grade for any of its cars.
GM recommends 0w30 in my '18 Equinox Owners Manual if its really cold outside and you have the 2.0T engine (mine has the 1.5T with 0w20 as its oil). One could miss that unless they read the OM, which most people don't of course. Past model years have had the "If cold, then 0w30." clause as well.
...
The master list only has "Mobil Super Synthetic", which is a notch lower in quality than regular M1 and not the same oil. It might be the same as the Mobil-supplied AC-Delco oil, but I'm not certain of that.
Good info on GM and 0W30, I appreciate the correction. I guess I don't know why I don't see any dexos1 0W30 oils, then.
I do have to beg to differ with you on the dexos1 Gen 2 master list, it does show M1 5W30 all by its lonesome self from that product line.
"Mobil 1 - ExxonMobil Oil Corporation - dexos1™ Gen 2 - 5W-30 - D10104GH015 - Global"
Dashes added by me for clarity...I have no idea why no other M1 oils are listed there. The XOM website shows M1 5W30 AP with a similar Gen 2 license #D10110GH015, for example. As you mentioned, tons of Mobil Super oils on that list...???? WTH?
Maybe just maybe Mobil Super Synthetic really is not so much beneath regular Mobil 1 ?? Something tells me that is possibly the case here. I think Mobil does the same thing Castrol does in that they really "over do" for their entire product line. In other words, the supposed "lesser" offerings really exceed the specs of API SN, ILSAC GF-5 and that holds true for the oils and specs above that too. I would be willing to bet that Castrol Ultraclean 5w30 either meets the Dexos approval or barely just misses it. Which of course Castrol Ultraclean does not carry the Dexos specification. I bet the same holds true for Mobil Super products as well.
Originally Posted By: parshisa
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20 it actually is
Good catch. The PDF tech sheets for Mobil1 AFE 0w20 & 0w30 both have Gen2 licenses, but the main website tech summary have not been updated yet (still say Gen1).
Still, most stuff you see on the shelves or order over Amazon.com will probably be old stock. Time will solve this.
To be fair, as Virtus_Probi has pointed out, the back of the bottle can have a Gen2 license number, while the front label can say Gen1 !!! Confusing for a while. .... Most folks with GM '18 models which require it will be going to the dealer for oil changes anyway, so not a problem in the non-BITOG world.
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20 it actually is
Good catch. The PDF tech sheets for Mobil1 AFE 0w20 & 0w30 both have Gen2 licenses, but the main website tech summary have not been updated yet (still say Gen1).
Still, most stuff you see on the shelves or order over Amazon.com will probably be old stock. Time will solve this.
To be fair, as Virtus_Probi has pointed out, the back of the bottle can have a Gen2 license number, while the front label can say Gen1 !!! Confusing for a while. .... Most folks with GM '18 models which require it will be going to the dealer for oil changes anyway, so not a problem in the non-BITOG world.
Originally Posted By: parshisa
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20
it actually is
Thanks. It appears it just got updated Monday.
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20
it actually is
Thanks. It appears it just got updated Monday.
I've just switched over to Schaeffer and I have called their technical services twice and got great assistance and info. Had to wait about 15-30 seconds each time. Maybe they would tell you what you need to know. It wouldn't hurt to ask. I sure wouldn't want to hurt my engine. By the way, I'm not promoting Schaeffer oil, just their technical services dept.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I have read two studies, where moly did have impact on reducing LSPI.
Thanks. OK, now I see it: " Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. " -- https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp
That makes me feel better about just dumping in 1/2 can (15 ml) of LM MOS2 in my tiny 1.5L turbo '18 Equinox!
150 ml of it (at 4,365 ppm moly) raises the concentration in a 5-quart sump to about 200 ppm, around triple what you normally have in many synthetics which have the typical 70 ppm.
On the CR-V this thread is talking about, Schaeffers does use a lot of moly, so it has an LSPI reduction effect. They have used 300 ppm of moly in their 9000-series 5w30 grade in the past, so the 0w20 probably follows that same formulation theme (Micron Moly brand name).
This is what I read exactly. Which lead me to feel a bit more comfy about using Schaeffer. I have a year worth of oil pretty much, not able to return it without paying a cost. I'll run some analysis, both VOA and UOA. I haven't seen one for Schaeffer 0w-20 so it'll be a learning experience.
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I have read two studies, where moly did have impact on reducing LSPI.
Thanks. OK, now I see it: " Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. " -- https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp
That makes me feel better about just dumping in 1/2 can (15 ml) of LM MOS2 in my tiny 1.5L turbo '18 Equinox!
150 ml of it (at 4,365 ppm moly) raises the concentration in a 5-quart sump to about 200 ppm, around triple what you normally have in many synthetics which have the typical 70 ppm.
On the CR-V this thread is talking about, Schaeffers does use a lot of moly, so it has an LSPI reduction effect. They have used 300 ppm of moly in their 9000-series 5w30 grade in the past, so the 0w20 probably follows that same formulation theme (Micron Moly brand name).
This is what I read exactly. Which lead me to feel a bit more comfy about using Schaeffer. I have a year worth of oil pretty much, not able to return it without paying a cost. I'll run some analysis, both VOA and UOA. I haven't seen one for Schaeffer 0w-20 so it'll be a learning experience.
I assume M1 5W30 will also get the Gen 2 rating - when that happens which one is better for GDI engines : M1 5W30 or AFE 0W30 ? Most GDI engine owners want low calcium , very low NOACK , less VI's to guard against them turning into intake valve deposits , etc. *Perhaps M1 10W30 should not be over looked ?
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