De-Sludge Procedures

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OK, it's hot and I'm done beating nails for the day (fixing Pop's oil house ...).

Here's the background. I was alive and wrenching for $$ in a shop in the 1960's. So now you know how old I am ...

We did use ATF to clean engines while the owners drove. But we are talking 1960's oils and the associated sludge they caused. Almost all Group I lubricants ...

ATF worked because it was still made with whale oil as part of the mix. That means it worked just like Auto-RX does now by using polar molecules derived from natural oils which can work their way under sludges. Not under varnish, because it is itself a polar chemistry and it's fried on. Sludges are mostly from reaction with water vapors and cooling (condensates) which is why they are under the valve covers (tin cools) and not in the crankcase (hotter).

Just about the time I started trucking petroleum, the whale oil bans came down and the Japanese stopped selling bulk whale oil. So ATF changed and the all-petro ATF would not clean squat ...

Enter all the magic cleaners and additives. They came out weekly and folks would try anything. Some worked OK, like MMO. Most did nothing. Move forward 40 years and folks are discovering the real ester based synthetic oils do a similar job cleaning, albeit much slower.

So the best approach, if the motor runs OK and does not have valve/lifter noise, is to just use an inexpensive true synthetic oil, and a decent large filter, and do it over time. No odd chemicals. But if you must use an additive, the only ones that I know will absolutely work are BG109 and KREEN.

In you cleaning mix, you want at least 50% ester based oils. So look carefully at what can be gotten for reasonable $$ and use that. Guaranteed that it will not be what the rental company was using. And that's good because you need an alternative chemistry to work with what formed the sludge in the first place
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Using this approach, you will have a clean motor in 10,000 miles w/o any stress or damage
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And all you have to do is to drive it around at op-temp and change the filter every 1,500 miles and top up with more synthetic. You can leave the oil in for 6,000 miles as long as you change the filter that is getting loaded ... Let the filter do the work
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Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
fill the motor to the brim (the fill hole) with diesel with one quart of oil. Run for 10 minutes at idle with a few easy RPM raises.


sorry...... but this is a horrible idea


Well, it's worked for me with everything from Ford flat-heads to sunken marine engines. It's just sloshing around. There is no load on the motor. Once drained, use good oil to refill and idle 10 minutes to make sure all the little residual diesel is blended and all the bearings are lubed with real oil ...

It'll all run out when you pull the plug. It's the fast way, but living on the edge, for sure
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See previous Post about the safe way
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A lot of input here. Thank you all! So after some reading here and discussion we decided to change the strategy a bit.
Current oil will get a quart of MMO and will get changed in roughly 100 miles. After that the engine will get 5k OCIs with Mobil 1 5w30 HM. Already have that oil on hand, so no need to go and spend money on oils. It will get a new filter halway through the OCI. That will keep on going until the used oil stops turning pitch black in 5k miles.
 
What is this sludge hurting?

Quick fixes solvents risk knocking it all down in the pan at once and clogging the pickup. Or pushing it in to lifters.

I would bet short OCI's like others have suggested with PYB or a HDEO will clean it up eventually.
 
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
I am not using diesel or kerosine. Mainly because there is a video (in Russian) of a guy who tests oil lubricating properties with one arm bandit. He heats up the oil before every test to get it as close to operating conditions as possible.
He puts the friction/pressure load on the oil. Straight oil, depending on the brand, was taking 7-15 KGs of load before the bearing wheel stopped. Once he mixed the oil with diesel or kerosine - the friction was so bad that the wheel stopped at 1-3KGs of load! There is no way I am mixing diesel with oil. MMO is not kerosine or ATF, as some here suggest. So MMO will have a chance of working in that engine shortly before next oil change. The vehicle is 2012 Toyota Corolla with 60k miles.


Since you are throwing science out based on anecodote from 3rd world petroleum, do what you want. Or wake up.

Your one-off incident is using the uncertified junk sold in Russia as representative of both a)oil, and b) kerosene. This isn't Russia and things aren't like that here. I know, my wife is Russian and we watch the same idiot videos you are talking about. You are comparing apples to oranges.
 
Originally Posted By: Oro_O
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
I am not using diesel or kerosine. Mainly because there is a video (in Russian) of a guy who tests oil lubricating properties with one arm bandit. He heats up the oil before every test to get it as close to operating conditions as possible.
He puts the friction/pressure load on the oil. Straight oil, depending on the brand, was taking 7-15 KGs of load before the bearing wheel stopped. Once he mixed the oil with diesel or kerosine - the friction was so bad that the wheel stopped at 1-3KGs of load! There is no way I am mixing diesel with oil. MMO is not kerosine or ATF, as some here suggest. So MMO will have a chance of working in that engine shortly before next oil change. The vehicle is 2012 Toyota Corolla with 60k miles.


Since you are throwing science out based on anecodote from 3rd world petroleum, do what you want. Or wake up.

Your one-off incident is using the uncertified junk sold in Russia as representative of both a)oil, and b) kerosene. This isn't Russia and things aren't like that here. I know, my wife is Russian and we watch the same idiot videos you are talking about. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Thank you for your helpful input!
 
That should be fine - it's going to be black for a while - just cleaning up behind WaxKing 5w30 in bulk ...
 
MMO is a gentle cleaner. I d run it longer than 100 miles.
I d run it at least a 1000.
You would think the MMO would thin the oil out but it seems to blend with it. It's strange.
Put some with oil in a glass jar and it doesn't appear to thin it out but just mix blend. I used to be weary to put it in the oil but when any car is down on oil, I add MMO instead and the engine actually sounds smoother. I think you will like it. I ran a full quart for 3000 miles in the Ford F150 and it made a big improvement to the notorious 5.4 engine smoothness.
 
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I've had quick, unambiguous, measurable results using a spoon.

The chemistry of the spoon doesn't matter much, but its physical consistency does a bit. A slightly flexible plastic spoon, or a rubber mixing paddle, will conform to surfaces better, or you can improvise scrapers using plastic sheet.

For small, tight areas drinking straws of various diameters have the advantages that the end can flatten to fit the surface, it can be cut to a suitable profile, and material removed is stored inside the tube.
 
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My experience with flushing was when I stretched the miles in my vehicle thinking that the dealer put in synthetic oil. Alas, he didn't. Sure enough there was sludge. Emptied half a can of Seafoam and drove the vehicle for 20 miles and drained the oil.

Globs of sludge just dropped from the oil pan and one in particular had the shape of a bearing with a hole in the middle. Scary!. Changed the oil immediately and the engine ran fine.

But a day later noticed engine oil spots all over the floor. The rear seal of the engine had leaked with that dark oil. But that leak was not permanent, just that once when I had flushed. After that no leaks and the engine was fine.

But, since then, I am very uneasy about engine flushes and rather use full synthetic oil as engine flush. Meaning, do it every 200 miles or so for three times and then go to normal oil change intervals.

I found a video of a guy who did precisely that. Figure out, how many oil changes it takes before the oil comes out clean and I think in his experment it was 4 times.

Search YouTub with the title below,

Clear Engine Oil - How Many Oil Changes Does it Take? (with Color Comparison)​

 
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My experience with flushing was when I stretched the miles in my vehicle thinking that the dealer put in synthetic oil. Alas, he didn't. Sure enough there was sludge. Emptied half a can of Seafoam and drove the vehicle for 20 miles and drained the oil.

Globs of sludge just dropped from the oil pan and one in particular had the shape of a bearing! Changed the oil immediately and the engine ran fine.

But a day later noticed engine oil spots all over the floor. The rear seal of the engine had leaked with that dark oil. But that leak was not permanent, just that once when I had flushed. After that no leaks and the engine was fine.

But, since then I am very uneasy about engine flushes and rather use full synthetic oil as engine flush. Meaning, do it every 200 miles or so for three times and then go to normal oil change intervals.

I found a video of a guy who did precisey that. Figure out, how many oil changes it takes before the oil comes out clean and I think in his experment it was 4 times.


Got a picture of that bearing shaped sludge ?
 
Got a picture of that bearing shaped sludge ?
It was years ago and I don't have those pics anymore. But I have some where the oil from the rear seal leaked down to the oil pan cover and stuff...

To give more info, it was a vehicle that had 175k miles in it and was dealer serviced all the time. Even though the OCI was 5k in the manual the dealer always put the 3k sticker on my windshield. I asked them why I have to come back at 3k when the manual says 5k and arent you using synethic oil? Their response was "We recommend it and we buy bulk synthetic oil in drums and don't open quart bottles". Sounded convincing. Apparently the 3k mark was because they used the cheapest non-synethic oil and they probably knew that it had to be changed frequently.

As for taking that pic, I remember now that I was using a closed Jerry Can like Oil catch pan. The one with a hole in the middle. So when this glob came out it just slipped past that hole into the can and I had no patience to drain and dig it out. Plus, I think it could have been the sludge accumulating around the drain pan nut given the size and the hole in the middle which eventually gave out as the oil was draining and slipped through.
 

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Bg epr, liqui moly proline engine flush......
And I'm currently trying zmax to clean up a just bought honda 3.5v6.
So far the results, under the valve covers,have been great.
 
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A lot of input here. Thank you all! So after some reading here and discussion we decided to change the strategy a bit.
Current oil will get a quart of MMO and will get changed in roughly 100 miles. After that the engine will get 5k OCIs with Mobil 1 5w30 HM. Already have that oil on hand, so no need to go and spend money on oils. It will get a new filter halway through the OCI. That will keep on going until the used oil stops turning pitch black in 5k miles.
The mobil 1 HM has a good ester load in it, really good for constant cleaning. They even reccomend a few shorter oci's if you are cleaning up someone's mess.
 
IMHO, diesel oil with short (2k mi) OCIs, two-three OCIs.
I have heard Diesel, kerosene and ATF works well too. But, I think the prudent approach would be to do it in phases rather than one strong shock treatment. I personally used Seafoam (just half a can) which worked but it could have gone other ways too if the thick sludge actually got circulated inside the engine clogging up the oil channels inside. I just got lucky and drove the vehicle for 5k miles after and had no issues, before I sold it.

I watch "Eric the Car Guy" and find his videos very good. He talks about flush and you will. find one of his vidoes under "Should you flush your engine?" Watch if you are curious and interested. He shows a filter inside a engine that had me thinking about my experience....

But people use it in all kind of ways and seems to work. But remember, for the ones where this procedure didn't work, people hardly post about it. They won't document the failure of a vehicle on the internet that they probably ended up selling anyways.
 
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