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Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey #4305186
01/17/17 02:31 PM
01/17/17 02:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
Hey Guys,

Ok, so to start off, this isn't exactly a "which oil should I use, blah blah blah" question, but more of a "I think somethings wrong with my 200k mile J35A4, and I'm clueless why".

So here's the background: the J35 is the original engine in my 2004 Honda Odyssey (no VCM, no oil life minder or anything). We've owned it since new, so after the first 3,750 miles, we've run Castrol GTX 5w-20 since 2004, for however many revisions of the oil it's been through. The car has eaten 1/4 - 1/2 qt of oil in between each OC until 100k miles, and we've kept the 7.5k mile OCI the whole time.

By 120k it was eating 3/4 qt up until 185k miles. However, the past 2 years its been eating 1.5 qts of oil, and right now at 200,700 I've put 1.75 qts of oil for 5700 miles of the current interval since 195k.

Also, to note; the oil doesn't burn past the rings. It all gets sucked into the intake via PCV. I changed the PCV @ 80k mi, 120k mi, 170k mi, 185k mi, 195k mi.... I know it's all in the intake because I found it all in there when I did a valve adjustment at 120k mi.

[My Problem] -
While I have read that oil goes dark fast when the cleaners in it are picking up more sludge, I can't believe that the SN GTX is black by 5500 miles, when it was usually only dark amber @ 7500 miles on the SM formula. This is my 3rd set of SN GTX and it's been the same story, really dark by 5500 miles & black by 7500 miles.

I could live with this, but just from what I see through the oil filler, the rocker arms and springs are turning dark brown, as well as the walls of the cylinder head. They have not looked like this up until now, because I do look in there @ each oil change to see how cyl. #6 is doing.

Does anyone have any insight on if the new SN formulation of GTX is no longer able to do the 7500 mi. OCI?

I've spent the past 3 days looking around on Odyclub and BITOG and have noticed that the add pack & cold flow in GTX are inferior to PYB, at least in the 5w20 flavor.

This is what I'm planning on doing when we get above 30F this spring (hopefully someday soon, im tired of frostbite...):

1. @ 202,500 I'll switch to PYB 5w20. Will send off GTX sample to B_S for analysis.
2. I'll run a 5k mi OCI for 15k mi in order to give it a chance to clean anything, assuming it can out-clean the GTX.
3. On the last 5k mi fill, @ 217,500 I will send the PYB off to B_S. Then switch back to 7500 mi OCI.

I'm hoping that with the higher TBN rating in PYB, I'll be able to get the 7500 out of it.

Thoughts?

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305191
01/17/17 02:38 PM
01/17/17 02:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,320
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,320
Northern Ontario, Canada
If it was vehicle, I wouldn't have run dino oil at 7500 mile intervals - max 5,000.

Switch to PYB, I would use 5W-30 and do 5,000 mile intervals.

At 200K miles you have done pretty well IMO.


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305198
01/17/17 02:47 PM
01/17/17 02:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,213
Kentucky
Ramblejam Offline
Ramblejam  Offline
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,213
Kentucky
Originally Posted By: JDMHero47
1. @ 202,500 I'll switch to PYB 5w20.

Why are you insistent on staying with Xw20? With that age/mileage, a higher viscosity would be entirely reasonable; many around here running 0w-40 in these Honda J engines.

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305215
01/17/17 02:59 PM
01/17/17 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,974
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,974
Illinois
Your problem might be ring coking and allowing oil to pass by the coked rings. This happens quite often. I have seen rings coked where there is no ring pressure left. As your engine is slowly using more oil is another sign of ring coking. I have 198K on my Fusion and the engine still uses no oil in my normal 10K OCI, and that's with 0-20 oil.


2007 Ford Fusion 235,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 60K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305230
01/17/17 03:12 PM
01/17/17 03:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,966
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,966
NY
I'd replace the PCV valve with an OE part. I would also look into Kreen and running that as per the directions. The rings could be coked up, and a short OCI with the Kreen might help.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305247
01/17/17 03:42 PM
01/17/17 03:42 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 410
Ice Box of the Nation
Doublehaul Online crying
Doublehaul  Online Crying
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 410
Ice Box of the Nation
If it were a ring coking issue...you would have smoke behind you...but not at this level. This is not a lot of oil consumption imho...id be happy it if were mine.

If it IS ring coking...which i don't think it is, no oil is going to fix this issue imho.

First step...get OEM pcv valve...after market units are notoriously low quality.


2016 F-350 XLT 4x4 6.2l V8 4.30 SRW
Boss DXT Stainless V-Plow

Valvoline VWB 5w30
Fram Ultra XG-2
Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305252
01/17/17 03:48 PM
01/17/17 03:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,282
Outer Banks, NC
NormanBuntz Offline
NormanBuntz  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,282
Outer Banks, NC
As a Honda owner myself, I think using any conventional oil at 7,500 mile intervals is pushing the limit, unless those miles are predominantly highway miles. A synthetic blend, like the Conoco Phillips oils used by Honda for many years, is what I've used.

As for a solution, you have some good suggestions already. Use Kreen by the product directions. I like Danno's suggestion of using PYB 5w-30 at 5K intervals.


2017 Honda Odyssey SE, 16K
2013 Honda Accord LX, 58K
2007 Honda Ridgeline RTS, 88K
2007 Infiniti M35, 107K
Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: Doublehaul] #4305269
01/17/17 04:16 PM
01/17/17 04:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
Originally Posted By: Doublehaul
If it were a ring coking issue...you would have smoke behind you...but not at this level. This is not a lot of oil consumption imho...id be happy it if were mine.

If it IS ring coking...which i don't think it is, no oil is going to fix this issue imho.

First step...get OEM pcv valve...after market units are notoriously low quality.


I do buy the OEM PCV valves. they do last more than aftermarket, but that's still only 15k miles at best right now.

I've heard that one way to get rid of ring coking is to rev the motor out every once in a while. Unless I make it a point to run it up there, the person driving the car never revs it over 3.5k rpm. I think it does help, but I can't do this every week, so it eats after a while here and there. Is this even a valid way to clean the rings?

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: Ramblejam] #4305273
01/17/17 04:21 PM
01/17/17 04:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: JDMHero47
1. @ 202,500 I'll switch to PYB 5w20.

Why are you insistent on staying with Xw20? With that age/mileage, a higher viscosity would be entirely reasonable; many around here running 0w-40 in these Honda J engines.


The J35A1 in the 99-2001 odyssey was spec'd for 0x30, and the A4 in here is spec'd for 0x20. I don't believe I have a problem with the viscosity of the oil at all. Compared to any other Odyssey I've ever walked by idling, mine still has that menacing truck-like growl it had when it was new. I don't mind experimenting with oil on my throw-away cars, but not on the one I need running every day.

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305276
01/17/17 04:26 PM
01/17/17 04:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 66
Floridah
gilbertsta Offline
gilbertsta  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 66
Floridah
You obviously ran to light of weight of engine oil. Your cylinder walls are probably shellacked. What I would do is a last chance ditch effort to save your engine. I would run a can of sea foam thru her and replace the oil with a 10w 40w.


oil is a slippery slope, worse than banana peels. I know this for a fact
Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: Danno] #4305277
01/17/17 04:26 PM
01/17/17 04:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
Originally Posted By: Danno
If it was vehicle, I wouldn't have run dino oil at 7500 mile intervals - max 5,000.

Switch to PYB, I would use 5W-30 and do 5,000 mile intervals.

At 200K miles you have done pretty well IMO.


I know it's not bad @200k, but I have this car bean-counted out to 270k miles, which is when my stock of ATF-Z1 ends. I just don't get why the same oil I've been using suddenly started going dark so much faster, and getting eaten faster.

I do understand slowly eating more and more over 10's of thousands of miles. But a sudden doubling in the consumption rate?? C'mon...

I wonder what I'm going to find when I do the valve adjustment.

Btw, the PYB 5w20 has a NOACK of ~6 something, but the 5w30 has NOACK of ~13 on PQIA. All else held equal, the 20 would be better, right? (not sure if I'm interpreting NOACK correctly, as I don't quite understand why an oil has a % weight loss???)

TY for the answers so far, I appreciate it!

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: gilbertsta] #4305279
01/17/17 04:28 PM
01/17/17 04:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
Originally Posted By: gilbertsta
You obviously ran to light of weight of engine oil. Your cylinder walls are probably shellacked. What I would do is a last chance ditch effort to save your engine. I would run a can of sea foam thru her and replace the oil with a 10w 40w.
'

Now this I know is just straight wrong. Did you read what I posted at all?

Is there a way to block sarcastic/stupid answers like this?

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305284
01/17/17 04:36 PM
01/17/17 04:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
JDMHero47 Offline OP
JDMHero47  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 20
Boise, Idaho
I should mention I am mainly looking for an answer as to whether or not the GTX formulation has changed so drastically as to go south so quickly in the same application I've had it in.

I know my engine isn't "low-mileage" but it is definitely mechanically sound and well within spec on the moving parts. Maybe more blow-by from worn ignition components and injectors that are more generous...

I'm also not just guessing, because I do have a partially-destroyed A20A1 parked next to it that has rod knock and a slapping camshaft in it. The J35 is DEFINITELY not even close to there. whistle

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305286
01/17/17 04:42 PM
01/17/17 04:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
FZ1 Offline
FZ1  Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
The xw-20 spec was influenced by cafe try a 30 weight.

Re: Q about 200k mi. issue on Odyssey [Re: JDMHero47] #4305290
01/17/17 04:44 PM
01/17/17 04:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Gradual buildup of gunk on the pistons and rings could increase your consumption and dirty the oil faster by allowing more blow-by - unless it's ring wear, in which case you're screwed. A good flush with Kreen, Seafoam (in the fuel and oil, though maybe not at the same time), or the like won't hurt it, and may largely rectify your problem. That type of oil consumption won't show up on spark plugs or out the tailpipe - it takes a quart every few hundred miles to do that. Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest, after any cleaning attempts, switching to a synthetic blend high mileage oil. HM oils are engineered to reduce consumption, not just leaks, and may also help.


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
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