So I'm looking to use max life and i see no moly. Now I understand some that only have a little moly like M1 are supposed to be using some super duper tri moly but what about the supposed good oils with no moly? I think moly is supposed to help with multiple things and one important thing is to help restore mild scoring or scuffing but if an oil has none what else can do this. And if nothing else can do this isn't that something that's missing in performance?
Is moly important and if not what else?
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MolaKule
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MolaKule
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Short answer is, a combination of additives, that each may perform other functions too, can act together to lower friction enough to pass specs. About a third of the formulas on http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html have no moly. Famously, Castrol 0w-40 doesn't use moly, sodium, or boron, but at least its not trying to be GF-5 either.
"Esters, natural and synthetic fatty acids as well as some solid materials such as graphite and molybdenum disulfide are used for these (FM) purposes."
--- http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28815/what-are-friction-modifiers
"FM’s may be produced from a number of chemicals:
– long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
– long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
– long-chain amides, imides, and derivative
– specially prepared esters and esters of base oils."
--- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/friction-reducers-and-aw-additives/
"Esters, natural and synthetic fatty acids as well as some solid materials such as graphite and molybdenum disulfide are used for these (FM) purposes."
--- http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28815/what-are-friction-modifiers
"FM’s may be produced from a number of chemicals:
– long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
– long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
– long-chain amides, imides, and derivative
– specially prepared esters and esters of base oils."
--- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/friction-reducers-and-aw-additives/
MolaKule
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Originally Posted By: Jake777
MolaKule I know you know your stuff. What do you think of Maxlife va Pennzoil high mileage?
Both are good oils and Blends of mineral and synthetic base oils.
HM oil formulations emphasize cleaning, seal conditioning, and a bit more anti-wear chemistries.
Pure Organic (non-"organo-metallic") ashless friction modifiers will not show up in any analysis.
MolaKule I know you know your stuff. What do you think of Maxlife va Pennzoil high mileage?
Both are good oils and Blends of mineral and synthetic base oils.
HM oil formulations emphasize cleaning, seal conditioning, and a bit more anti-wear chemistries.
Pure Organic (non-"organo-metallic") ashless friction modifiers will not show up in any analysis.
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Step 1: look at your Owners manual to see what specs are required for your car
Step 2: Look at the back of the bottle to see what specs it meets
Step 3: If they match you are done. If not, look at another bottle.
Want a better oil? Find one that meets a more stringent spec.
Second guessing formulators who have carefully designed an oil is foolish at best.
Step 2: Look at the back of the bottle to see what specs it meets
Step 3: If they match you are done. If not, look at another bottle.
Want a better oil? Find one that meets a more stringent spec.
Second guessing formulators who have carefully designed an oil is foolish at best.
Many things don't show up on an Oil Analysis element list too. I'm wondering how often micro grains of graphite is being used instead of moly in some oils, and that's only carbon. Esters work too and never show up on analysis.
that was my main question. I mean so nothing that shows up in a VOA like Moly does but Moly is said to provide plating that helps with rough places but does the "esters" do that same thing and do we just have to assume that the oils with no Moly are using the "esters" and lastly are the esters better than Moly? I know some people say who cares but then again why join this forum if you don't care? All I wanted to hear from someone is "blank" can do the same thing with restoring compression and filling in scoring just like Moly can and its in this oil so there is no need for Moly... Instead we can't get any answer to that and instead both the cheapest oil and some expensive ones don't have moly but we can't tell if its just to cut price or if its because something better is being used. Long rant just saying. don't take offense I enjoy everyone on here and all the comments I just wish it was easier to decide on some facts about oil instead its becoming obvious that no one really knows anything specific and I guess I can live with that.
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OVERKILL
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Moly isn't filling in scoring and restoring compression, it sounds like you are talking about the "Restore" engine additive, which uses various metals to provide temporary restoration of compression and the filling of scores.
Yes it does per the first link MolaKule posted to the Moly section on this site says this. This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking.
"This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance."
"This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance."
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Jake777
Yes it does per the first link MolaKule posted to the Moly section on this site says this. This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking.
"This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance."
The first link was posted by krismoriah72, not Molakule. Also, that link is discussing Molybdenum Disulfide, which is not used generally in motor oils as per Molakule's post in the 2nd link provided:
Originally Posted By: Molakule
There seems to be some continuing confusion over moly or molybdenum additives in lubricants. Moly in whatever form is a primarily a friction reducer.
There are generally three types of moly used to reduce friction:
1. SOLID, Powdered MoS2 used a solid lubricant, primarily used in locks and suspended in greases.
2. colloidal molybdenum disulfide which means MoS2 suspended in an oil. Particle size may vary from micrometers (1X10^-6) to tens of nanometers (1X10^-9) meters in size. The primary application was in gear lubes (except for manual transmissions) and greases.
3. The soluble moly may be in the form of molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC, molybdenum dialkyldithiophosphates or MoDTP, and molybdenum dithiolate or MoDTH. These chemistries are most used in liquid lubricating oils.
Molybdenum dithiophosphate or MoDTP is used primarily in hydraulic oils.
MoDTH is used in specialty applications.
Molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC is now the most often used form of moly in motor oils and gear lubes, except for Manual Transmissions. MoDTC also acts as an anti-oxidant and is therefore classified as a Multi-functional additive.
At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three.
That first link about Molybdenum Disulfide is saying that (this) moly fills the microscopic pores making the surfaces smoother. This aides in chamber/ring seal. It says nothing about scoring, which certainly isn't microscopic, nor about RESTORING compression in an engine with scored cylinders.
Yes it does per the first link MolaKule posted to the Moly section on this site says this. This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking.
"This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance."
The first link was posted by krismoriah72, not Molakule. Also, that link is discussing Molybdenum Disulfide, which is not used generally in motor oils as per Molakule's post in the 2nd link provided:
Originally Posted By: Molakule
There seems to be some continuing confusion over moly or molybdenum additives in lubricants. Moly in whatever form is a primarily a friction reducer.
There are generally three types of moly used to reduce friction:
1. SOLID, Powdered MoS2 used a solid lubricant, primarily used in locks and suspended in greases.
2. colloidal molybdenum disulfide which means MoS2 suspended in an oil. Particle size may vary from micrometers (1X10^-6) to tens of nanometers (1X10^-9) meters in size. The primary application was in gear lubes (except for manual transmissions) and greases.
3. The soluble moly may be in the form of molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC, molybdenum dialkyldithiophosphates or MoDTP, and molybdenum dithiolate or MoDTH. These chemistries are most used in liquid lubricating oils.
Molybdenum dithiophosphate or MoDTP is used primarily in hydraulic oils.
MoDTH is used in specialty applications.
Molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC is now the most often used form of moly in motor oils and gear lubes, except for Manual Transmissions. MoDTC also acts as an anti-oxidant and is therefore classified as a Multi-functional additive.
At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three.
That first link about Molybdenum Disulfide is saying that (this) moly fills the microscopic pores making the surfaces smoother. This aides in chamber/ring seal. It says nothing about scoring, which certainly isn't microscopic, nor about RESTORING compression in an engine with scored cylinders.
To that end, the Schaeffer 5w30 9003D I use has about 308 ppm of moly and 68 ppm of Antimony along with a typical 857 ppm on Zinc. Seems like a nice combination.
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Originally Posted By: ryanm8
From what I've read, moly forms a protective barrier on the surface of metal parts. Do ashless FM's do this as well? Wouldn't this type of behavior be desirable and make moly the preferred option to ashless FM's?
I wonder this as well. What exactly is in ois to act as anti friction in oils that show 0ppm molybendum vs oil like Redline and Pennzoil that have a huge amount?
From what I've read, moly forms a protective barrier on the surface of metal parts. Do ashless FM's do this as well? Wouldn't this type of behavior be desirable and make moly the preferred option to ashless FM's?
I wonder this as well. What exactly is in ois to act as anti friction in oils that show 0ppm molybendum vs oil like Redline and Pennzoil that have a huge amount?
MolaKule
Staff member
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ddit#Post729029
Quote:
The critical difference between AW/EP additive films and FM films is in their mechanical properties.] AW/EP films are semiplastic deposits which are hard to shear off. Thus, under shearing conditions, their coefficient of friction is moderately to high. The exceptions are the organometallic compounds listed above. Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction. The phenomena can be described as a deck of plastic coated playing cards lying on the table and sliding off the top card easily.
Quote:
The critical difference between AW/EP additive films and FM films is in their mechanical properties.] AW/EP films are semiplastic deposits which are hard to shear off. Thus, under shearing conditions, their coefficient of friction is moderately to high. The exceptions are the organometallic compounds listed above. Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction. The phenomena can be described as a deck of plastic coated playing cards lying on the table and sliding off the top card easily.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Jake777
...This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking...
First of all, just because some form of moly doesn't show up does not mean the PCMO has no friction modfiers.
ALL PCMO friction modifiers (FM's) act in the same way, whether they be organo-metallic like MoDTC (Soluble moly) or a purely organic FM; they shear after attaching themselves so that friction may be reduced..
Moly does this by shearing little "platelets," similar to the shearing of a deck of plastic playing cards. The cards are the platelets.
Organic FM's shear by,
Quote:
...close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction...
And no, just because moly doesn't show up doesn't mean the oil is of lesser quality. It simply means the formulator chose to use a different FM chemistry.
There is NO rule that says we formulators have to use moly as as our only FM.
...This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking...
First of all, just because some form of moly doesn't show up does not mean the PCMO has no friction modfiers.
ALL PCMO friction modifiers (FM's) act in the same way, whether they be organo-metallic like MoDTC (Soluble moly) or a purely organic FM; they shear after attaching themselves so that friction may be reduced..
Moly does this by shearing little "platelets," similar to the shearing of a deck of plastic playing cards. The cards are the platelets.
Organic FM's shear by,
Quote:
...close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction...
And no, just because moly doesn't show up doesn't mean the oil is of lesser quality. It simply means the formulator chose to use a different FM chemistry.
There is NO rule that says we formulators have to use moly as as our only FM.
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