Is moly important and if not what else?

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

...I wonder this as well. What exactly is in ois to act as anti friction in oils that show 0ppm molybendum vs oil like Redline and Pennzoil that have a huge amount?


[ORGANIC] FM's may be produced from a number of chemicals:
- long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
- long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
- long-chain amides, imides, and derivatives
- specially prepared esters.....

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ddit#Post729029

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jake777
Yes it does per the first link MolaKule posted to the Moly section on this site says this. This is why to my understanding I don't know if anything but Moly does this and thus if it's lacking then it's lacking.


The first link was posted by krismoriah72, not Molakule. Also, that link is discussing Molybdenum Disulfide, which is not used generally in motor oils as per Molakule's post in the 2nd link provided:


That first link about Molybdenum Disulfide is saying that (this) moly fills the microscopic pores making the surfaces smoother. This aides in chamber/ring seal. It says nothing about scoring, which certainly isn't microscopic, nor about RESTORING compression in an engine with scored cylinders.


Thank you overkill.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

...I wonder this as well. What exactly is in ois to act as anti friction in oils that show 0ppm molybendum vs oil like Redline and Pennzoil that have a huge amount?


[ORGANIC] FM's may be produced from a number of chemicals:
- long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
- long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
- long-chain amides, imides, and derivatives
- specially prepared esters....

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ddit#Post729029


Should say:

[ORGANIC and ORGANO-METALLIC] FM's may be produced from a number of chemicals:
- long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
- long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
- long-chain amides, imides, and derivatives
- specially prepared esters....

A little lesson in chemistry:

Why did I bold-italicize the first item in the list?

HINT: A salt is composed of a _________ and a ________.

 

[Joe90_guy]

My twopenneth worth...

Organic Moly truly is the dogs bollocks in old fashioned Group I oils. It does just about everything right; wear, cleanliness, fuel economy but especially oxidation. It's effective at really low treats and has almost no negative points other than it's high unit cost.

In better quality base oils, the argument for Moly is less clear cut. I know the Japanese often use massive treats of Moly in their oils as friction modifiers but at these high treats you do see more negatives coming out of the woodwork; seals with moly di-thio-carbamates being the most apparent.

Not convinced on the smoother surfaces and pore filling stuff. It's a nice story, something the marketing people might float but I never saw anything which would suggest that's what it did.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Should say:

[ORGANIC and ORGANO-METALLIC] FM's may be produced from a number of chemicals:
- long-chain carboxylic acids and their derivatives including salts,
- long-chain phosphoric or phosphonic acids and their derivatives
- long-chain amides, imides, and derivatives
- specially prepared esters....

A little lesson in chemistry:

Why did I bold-italicize the first item in the list?

HINT: A salt is composed of a _________ and a ________.


You get a salt when you neutralize an acid with a base.
The salt is composed of positively charged cations, and negatively charged anions, to form a neutral compound with an ionic bond. With organic acids they can form an anion, which can bond to metal cation, to form an organometallic salt.

 

[afoulk]

I have a couple questions in this subject. First, some oils use heavy doses of moly as a FM, while there are some that use titanium. Do both react similarly? I've seen some remembers here say that titanium tends to start working at lower temps and may be better for colder climates and cold starts.

Second, and I've pondered this one for awhile. Say you've used PYB in your engine for a few oci's which contains moly as a FM, and you're engine internals now have a coating or plating of this additive, and then you switch to an oil like VWB that I'm assuming uses the organo-metallic compounds as an FM. What is happening inside the engine as you accumulate miles? Is the moly slowly being worn away and replaced by the organic compounds in the VWB, is there any kind of reaction between the two? Can this cause any damage if your constantly making a switch in oil formulations? Or since these are FM's and not AW additives, is range or wear not really an issue as one FM is being replaced by another? Guess what I'm actually trying to ask is, what is actually going on inside the engine when you switch oils? Is one FM instantly " washed " away from the metallic surfaces and replaced by the one in the new oil, or does this happen over time?

 

[Jake777]

Thank you all for elaborating on this subject it has really helped my understanding. Seriously this is the type of direct statements that help the layman understand. Now I know what you mean when you say not having moly isn't the end of that oils quality.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: afoulk
I have a couple questions in this subject. First, some oils use heavy doses of moly as a FM, while there are some that use titanium. Do both react similarly? I've seen some remembers here say that titanium tends to start working at lower temps and may be better for colder climates and cold starts.


Mazda 0w-20 Idemitsu claims their high levels of moly help wear and friction when cold, since we know ZDDP AW doesn't start until high heat and pressure. Esters start working cold too.

From the titanium FM/AW patent:

"It has been proposed in many patents and articles (for example, U.S. Pat. Nos. 4,164,473; 4,176,073; 4,176,074; 4,192,757; 4,248,720; 4,201,683; 4,289,635; and 4,479,883) that oil-soluble molybdenum compounds are useful as lubricant additives. In particular, the addition of molybdenum compounds to oil, particularly molybdenum dithiocarbamate compounds, provide the oil with improved boundary friction characteristics and bench tests demonstrate that the coefficient of friction of oil containing such molybdenum compounds is generally lower than that of oil containing organic friction modifiers. This reduction in coefficient of friction results in improved antiwear properties and may contribute to enhanced fuel economy in gasoline or diesel fired engines, including both short- and long-term fuel economy properties (i.e., fuel economy retention properties). To provide antiwear effects, molybdenum compounds are generally added in amounts introducing from about 350 ppm up to 2,000 ppm of molybdenum into the oil. While molybdenum compounds are effective antiwear agents and may further provide fuel economy benefits, such molybdenum compounds are expensive relative to more conventional, metal-free (ashless) organic friction modifiers.

Despite the foregoing, there continues to be a need for more cost effective lubricant compositions that provide equivalent or superior performance to lubricant compositions without the presence of molybdenum-based friction modifiers." --- http://www.google.com/patents/US7879774

The patent reads like an "Oil Formulation 101" tutorial. All that said, titanium has not made its way into very many oils. I suspect titanium's friction reduction isn't as strong as moly. So moly may be more expensive, yet if you're only purchasing 60 ppm or so for FM, and letting the esters and ZDDP handle the protection in the temperature spread you need, then that might be the reason why formulators aren't rushing over to titanium in numbers.

In fact, Castrol Edge has been reducing the amount of titanium used down to very small levels in the past year or so, just barely enough to keep their "Titanium FST" marketing ad campaign intact.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Salts can be easily identified since they usually consist of positive ions from a metal with negative ions from a non metal.


http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-salt-in-chemistry-definition-formula.html

My point was simply that the original statement about FM's shearing under mechanical forces hold for both organometallic as well as non-organometallic FM's.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So moly may be more expensive, yet if you're only purchasing 60 ppm or so for FM, and letting the esters and ZDDP handle the protection in the temperature spread you need, then that might be the reason why formulators aren't rushing over to titanium in numbers.


The main thrust is to reduce the total metallic content of engine oils in order to reduce ash deposits.

 

[aquariuscsm]

From what I've seen via oil analyses,the old Syntec had quite a bit of moly and no titanium. The newest Edge has no moly and some titanium. I've run both versions and to me,the old Syntec was superior. Just seemed to run much smoother. Just my observation.

 

[06VtecV6]

well, we all know how important and how much of a domino effect reducing friction (And heat) is to an engine, prob the #1 nemesis of an engine! moly as a FM is definitely important but not to the exclusion of any and all other formulations cause some synthetics which might have GP IV might not need moly. Case in point the Synpower of the valvoline full syn which is notoriously known to be the few non-boutique oils to contain GP IV oil but also uses sodium or NA as a primary ingredient with much fewer moly. so I would still answer your question by saying moly is important to those formulation who target its use as a FM which is of PARAMOUNT importance if you consider hp and Fe. Could make my top 3 list of "needs in an oil"!

 

[Jake777]

So is Maxlife with no moly and no titanium on par with PHM or MSHM

 

[Garak]

Jake, I would say yes. You're not going to have a modern PCMO, particularly an ILSAC rated one like MaxLife, without some sort of friction modification chemistry. Just because we can't see it in a cheap VOA doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

One other way to view this is that Afton has titanium tied up in patents. Therefore, maybe Oronite, Infineum, Lubrizol don't want to pay the patent fees, so no titanium in their packages. Castrol and Conoco-Phillips pay the patent fees, and-or buy additive packages from Afton directly, one of those ways to get Ti.

Moly appears to be less patent-bound, at least some forms of it.