*Mobil 1 - PAO & Visom

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie

I must have heard a dozen times in the last week how such-and-such version of Mobil 1 "has a decent amount of PAO".

Lame assertion, by the standards of this forum.

And while I agree with your point... baseless assertions aside, you DO have a hate-on for Mobil so hard it would make Ron Jeremy jealous. So pretending you don't have a dog in this fight (your own agenda here) is a fool's game.

You have always been very transparent in your hatred for Exxon-Mobil, so it is not like you are simply posting in this thread for educational reasons.

I would imagine the same could be said for why I respond to you however. And I am using Petro Canada products now. I harbour no ill-will towards my previous mistress; she served me well for over a decade and hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Still haven't heard a reason to care about ingredients when there's no evidence of a performance difference.


I would agree. However, a lot of people are screaming about Mobil's pricing. I get Mobil 1 cheaper right now than ANY synthetic out there, by a substantial margin. Second place goes to GC (only GC, not the other Syntec varieties), and third place to Royal Purple. PP and Syntec are in a distant fourth. Edge is priced totally out of the game at nearly triple the price of Mobil 1 and nearly double that of Royal Purple. PU hasn't even entered the game here.

 

[d00df00d]

Correct, but what's your point?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Correct, but what's your point?


The point is quite simple. People are grumbling that Mobil 1 is becoming a "lesser" product at the same price; or, at least the argument is that their making a cheaper-to-produce product and selling it at the same price.

I can't speak for the U.S., but the price has gone down here, and substantially so. If the performance is effectively the same, regardless of the differences between Group III and IV, I have no complaints, particularly with the price going reductions I've observed.

Also, as soon as anyone mentions Group III and ExxonMobil in the same sentence, conspiracy theory mode kicks in. Various Group IIIs are okay with advertising 4x or 8x less wear than Mobil 1, yet when there's even a hint of Mobil 1 going to Group III, people act as if the Evil Empire were stealing their wallets.

 

[d00df00d]

Ah, okay. Just wanted to be clear.

 

[vxcalais]

Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
A natural evolution of the formulation

The Mobil 1 formulation strategy has always been based on selecting the best components available. We now have the very high quality Group III+ base stock, ‘Visom’ exclusively available to ExxonMobil. As we developed the Mobil 1 ESP technology we found that combining Visom with PAO could deliver a formulation of equivalent performance to an all PAO formulation.

Competitive advantage

Visom is the only non-PAO stock that can deliver the required performance to formulate a 0W grade oil that meets European OEM engine oil specifications. Visom is not available to our competition.

To support Mobil 1 growth

Global PAO capacity is limited. As we quickly approach this limit, new base stocks must be explored to ensure we can support the continued growth of the Mobil 1 family of products.

To ensure continuity of supply

As we saw with the 2005 hurricane, the more flexibility we have in our formulations, the better placed we are to withstand disruption to our supply. We can balance PAO and Visom supply fluctuations to ensure we can always deliver the final product to our customers.

To maintain market relevant pricing

As PAO supply has tightened globally, raw material costs have increased substantially. In the future, an exclusively PAO formulation may be priced out of the market or result in significant margin erosion.

To prepare for next generation basestocks (GTL)

Commencing 2010, the next generation of base stocks derived from Natural Gas (Gas To Liquids) will enter the market. These high quality basestocks will arrive in substantial quantities and will probably be used in the majority of competitive premium formulations. Visom is viewed as a precursor of GTL, and hence it’s use now in our flagship formulations eases our transition to a GTL world, and helps us understand how to maintain flagship performance using these high quality non-PAO basestocks.



Apparently XOM let this go public because it was found online. It's a PowerPoint presentation.

I can tell you that from reading it, the current M1 formulations are better than ever. TEOST testing is extremely good. Mobil 1 is their flagship product and there is no evidence at all that Mobil 1 is any worse than it used to be. In fact, it's a better oil.

They also show some OEM proprietary testing results and the new 0w40 has improved cam wear protection.


Fair enough no one has trademark visom but Shell invented the XHVI Slack wax base oil.

 

[Mokanic]

My point exactly. EOM is playing catch-up and trying to make consumers think they have a base oil that's so much better than others. This sudden "openess" of EOM makes me want to vomit. While they do still have the loin's share of the synthetic oil market you can be sure their piece of the pie is slipping. There's no other reason that they would be low-balling their M1 in China-Mart.
Recently there was an article on how EOM had just increased their capacity to produce a new "super PAO" and the faithful were giddy as school girls. They just did not want to accept th fact that EOM is selling their PAO at a premium to China and India for their expanding industrial sector. There's plenty of PAO to go around. You just can't put a substantial amount in automotive oils t make a healthy profit if China-Mart is your primary outlet.

I'm all for making a profit. That is the name of the game. I just don't think EOM can be trusted to do right by the consumer. That's just my opinion.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Mokanic

I'm all for making a profit. That is the name of the game. I just don't think EOM can be trusted to do right by the consumer. That's just my opinion.


There's an oxymoron. You are all for making profit but you don't trust EOM to do right by the consumer???? Is Mobil making cheap oils that don't meet API or manufacturer's specs so they can make a profit? Is Mobil pulling a fast one on Mercedes, Porsches, GM, Ford, etc. by providing an inferior substitution of factory fills??? How can maximizing your profits while still meet or exceed your customer requirements be a bad thing?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
How can maximizing your profits while still meet or exceed your customer requirements be a bad thing?


Not quite the same thing as customer expectations.

I bought my 78 BMW - Blaupunkt made in Germany
I bought my 79 VW - Blaupunkt made in Japan

Do you know how many Japanese radios were replaced with German ones?
Do you know how may people whose requirements were met that felt that the reputation of the name brand was CHEAPENED. That the name brand was used to PASS OFF a less expensive product while getting BIG $$$ for it.

M1 ..the guys who will swap out cheaper material with the same performance net effect.

We used to give you solid oak ..now particle board will work just as good ..and if you didn't figure out the difference, we'd still be charging you large.

That about it?

Just the other side of the coin. I personally don't care, but as long as people keep falling back on that "it doesn't matter"...I'll keep creating scenarios where it matters a whole lot in terms of perception.

You turn the knob down, I'll turn it up. It's best to leave it be.

 

[buster]

Only a moron would not do what XOM did if they came across an ingredient that was less expensive, had some benefits to it like solvency, and did not hurt performance.

I suspect the dislike of M1 comes from other things rather then just a change in base oil type. The new 0w40 was an improvement over the old.



Quote:
Pennzoil Ultra™ is blended with Group III base stocks. These give superior solvency performance to Group IV base stocks, which we believe aids our aim to provide oil that delivers as close to “Factory Clean”. Rather than focus on any single component in the formulation, we focus on the end product.
- Shell

Some grades of M1 are still using substantial PAO.

 

[StevieC]

It's ok for any other MFG to use GRP-III base-stock like Pennzoil but not for XOM that is the problem.

 

[mcrn]

Im so happy XOM finally came out with the truth that I think I just visom'd all over myself.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: mcrn
Im so happy XOM finally came out with the truth that I think I just visom'd all over myself.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
It's ok for any other MFG to use GRP-III base-stock like Pennzoil but not for XOM that is the problem.

In the case of Pennzoil they had no problems letting the public know about it (PU question session we had), they were very open. I think XOM now realizes that it was a smart move on Pennzoil's part to be open about it. Explain the benefits, and use it as a tool to sell it. I guess XOM figured it might be time to hop on that bandwagon.

 

[StevieC]

I was being sarcastic.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Not quite the same thing as customer expectations.

I bought my 78 BMW - Blaupunkt made in Germany
I bought my 79 VW - Blaupunkt made in Japan

Do you know how many Japanese radios were replaced with German ones?
Do you know how may people whose requirements were met that felt that the reputation of the name brand was CHEAPENED. That the name brand was used to PASS OFF a less expensive product while getting BIG $$$ for it.

M1 ..the guys who will swap out cheaper material with the same performance net effect.

We used to give you solid oak ..now particle board will work just as good ..and if you didn't figure out the difference, we'd still be charging you large.

That about it?

Just the other side of the coin. I personally don't care, but as long as people keep falling back on that "it doesn't matter"...I'll keep creating scenarios where it matters a whole lot in terms of perception.

You turn the knob down, I'll turn it up. It's best to leave it be.


You are way off topic to say the least.

If you are buying a VW then expect VW quality not BMW quality. The price of the BMW should have been a clue.

Where did Mobil advertised that they meet customer expectation? They advertised that their oil meet or exceed your vehicle specifications and not your expectation. I have bought Royal Purple, Mobil1, Valvoline Synpower, Penzoil Platinum on sale for $1/qt, should I expect less performance or should I get less performance? You need to turn down your expectation quite a bit and read the owner manual to see what you really need. What you want or expect is not necessarily what you need.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yeah ..right. Again, I really don't care. But the apologist's patch overs just won't cover the fact (and if you look at the original discussions where Tom brought this up ..and the hubbub it caused when it occurred, that XOM themselves were cowardly and deceptive in keeping this thing quiet.

Just concede to the obvious and I'm outta here.

 

[rclint]

We have a two basis for post/posters here... one is what the people were expecting, and even professing as to what m1 current base stock is in general, then we have the op showing that information about what m1 base stocks are or will be (and I agree a lot of the article is just talking up their product).

I have read a lot of post here about m1 bashing back and forth and the topic always seems to be two things iron, and base stocks.. Now that the base stocks are dealt with, maybe the iron can be worked out, come out of the closet etc... My problem with m1 is if you think they were representing a fully synthetic product as in still comparison to the castrol debate where grp III is a scam, destroyed the oil market for us users etc... and if m1 marketed their oil at the price of true m1 synthetic their reputation base stock... I think m1 did this for a time... as long as possible BUT I have posted before m1 prices are some of the lowest now at walmart... call them china mart or whatever but walmart is pretty much like the stock market for prices...you know the real price of an oil when looking at walmart shelves.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Yeah ..right. Again, I really don't care. But the apologist's patch overs just won't cover the fact (and if you look at the original discussions where Tom brought this up ..and the hubbub it caused when it occurred, that XOM themselves were cowardly and deceptive in keeping this thing quiet.

Just concede to the obvious and I'm outta here.


Why opined when you don't really care? How is XOM cowardly and deceptive when they are following their business model like everyone else? You provided no proof except for some hum-haw on this forum in the past that XOM couldn't care less about. Where did XOM failed to meet specs with their advertised products?

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: rclint

I have read a lot of post here about m1 bashing back and forth and the topic always seems to be two things iron, and base stocks.. Now that the base stocks are dealt with, maybe the iron can be worked out, come out of the closet etc...


The base stocks are what they are now, who knows what tomorrow will be? The iron issue exists only on this forum and not with Mercedes, Porsches, GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. I have not seen one car manufacturer, a race team, nor a winning engine builder side stepping Mobil because of the iron issue. BTW, none of my cars is currently running Mobil1 even though I do have some Mobil1 0W40 on the shelves.