Video: Cut-open Subaru 15208AA12A & FRAM PH9715

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Soobs

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Hey folks,

So curiousity finally got the best of me today and I decided to chop open a used Subaru of America 15208AA12A oil filter and a new aftermarket FRAM PH9715. I just wanted to see what, if anything, was different between the two.

This is the first time I've cut open an oil filter and I'm no expert with this stuff so if you have anything to add please comment.
55.gif
If anyone would like to see some picture instead I have several high-quality up-close shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5FunfkPfjk
 
You're welcome!

Also, I annoted the video because I just dissassembled the pressure relief valve springs and found that the OEM Subaru oil filter does, in fact, have a bit more coil to it's spring and slightly more resistance when compressed vs. the aftermarket spring. To me it's very subtle but I suppose it's the difference between fully compressing at 12-14PSI(aftermarket) and 23PSI(OEM).

So, the only real differences I found between the two were the gaskets and relief springs. Other than that, it all appears to be identical.
 
Good video! About the bypass valve ... measure the diameter of the plastic valve piece on both filters to see if both are the same diameter. They look slightly different to me ... but could be an optical illusion due to the video.

They could very well use the same spring (which would make them feel the same when pushing them with a finger), but if one valve has less area (ie, smaller diameter), then it will take more PSI on the valve to make it start to open and move the valve the same distance open.

Also, looks like the spring and the white plastic valve on the Subaru filter has been discolored brown due to use. Does the brown wipe off? Kind of surprised it's so brown.
 
Just an excellent post Soobs. I question your comment on the material used in the drain back valve (Silicon vs Nitral). I wonder also if you could use a bathromm scale to measure the pressure relif valve setting. You could insert a 0.001 feeler blade into the the opening and position the valve on the scale and see at what pressure the blade can be removed.
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Good video! About the bypass valve ... measure the diameter of the plastic valve piece on both filters to see if both are the same diameter. They look slightly different to me ... but could be an optical illusion due to the video.

They could very well use the same spring (which would make them feel the same when pushing them with a finger), but if one valve has less area (ie, smaller diameter), then it will take more PSI on the valve to make it start to open and move the valve the same distance open.

Also, looks like the spring and the white plastic valve on the Subaru filter has been discolored brown due to use. Does the brown wipe off? Kind of surprised it's so brown.


The valve on the FRAM is white and the valve on the OEM is brown. At first I thought that it was just stained with oil until I examined a new, unused, OEM filter. It's brown in there too. Both have the same diameter and same length. The only difference I could find was a spring on OEM that has, ever so slightly, more coil. Also, I'm not sure if it's because the brown valve is used, but the plastic feels harder on it than the aftermarket valve.

Something else occured to me today. What if the range that they often give, ie. 12-14PSI, is due to inconsistancies in spring coil lengths? Is that why there is often a PSI range stated? Perhaps it's just a fluke that the spring in the OEM has slightly more coil and if I were to cut open another one it would have the same as the aftermarket?

I'm just really beginning to wonder why FRAM would make their Subaru exclusive aftermarket filter with a 12-14PSI and a OEM with 23PSI. Maybe they're both the same?

Subaru states there is a silicone ADBV. There's not. They say the media is a variable density two-ply paper. It's the same as FRAM ExtraGuard with an identical number of pleats. And finally they say something like "the pressure releif is set to a certain torque setting". Well, we'll see. So far it seems very much the same as the aftermarket to me (just slightly more coil in the spring). When this blue Subaru filter came out I never did read anything officially from Subaru stating it was 23psi. Manuals from the past have had that figure, but I don't have anything to reference that today.
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I question your comment on the material used in the drain back valve (Silicon vs Nitral). I wonder also if you could use a bathromm scale to measure the pressure relif valve setting. You could insert a 0.001 feeler blade into the the opening and position the valve on the scale and see at what pressure the blade can be removed.


I just took another look at the ADBVs and they appear to be the exact same part to me. Both are black, have the same design, and both have the same imprinted code/part# "AAX".

Unfortunately I have already taken apart the bypass valves, but I do I have the springs. I could give a test like that a shot if you folks want with the springs only. It will be a few days though. I'm heading out of town for four days and can take another look when I get back.
 
I got half way through it and quit. It only takes about a minute to look at some still shots. If I never see another video of an oil filter I will be just as happy.
 
I don't like being lied to by Subaru about that new filter... hence I won't buy it. In canada they want almost $8 for it. Paaalease!

There are a lot better filters out there for less!
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
I don't like being lied to by Subaru about that new filter... hence I won't buy it. In canada they want almost $8 for it. Paaalease!

There are a lot better filters out there for less!


What's the part # for the the Subaru of Canada OEM oil fiter? It would be interesting to compare it to a US sold OEM filter. If memory serves, the ones sold in Canada are built in the USA by FRAM. Kind of funny, because the ones in the USA are built in Canada by FRAM.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: labman
I got half way through it and quit. It only takes about a minute to look at some still shots. If I never see another video of an oil filter I will be just as happy.


I understand some people prefer apples over oranges and whatnot; however, I did this in my free time and tried to do a good job for the sake of the BITOG and Subaru community's knowledge/benefit. Like I said, I'm no expert in oil filters, but anyone even lurking on this website probably has more understanding (or at least desire to learn) about these sorts of things. I am hoping that this video will trigger more constructive discussion and get to the bottom of the small differences between these two filters. I've also emailed FRAM for any information they can disclose about the differences between the two.

I don't know why I care this much about the darn oil filters in my car, but I think most of you can understand the (sometimes overkilled) approach I (we) take to making sure we get the best value and product for our vehicles. Working on my cars is something that's just a fun hobby for me. I actually enjoy it and want to learn more about it.

If pictures do just as good then I will stick with that next time. I just figured actually seeing someone manipulate the filter/parts in a video might be more beneficial to some folks than just stills. For me, if the video is recorded with an average or better macrofocus, I kind of prefer that for certain things.
 
Originally Posted By: MrWideTires
Good thing none of my subarus have seen oem filters...


Whatcha running?
 
I see nothing special about the Subaru filter. Don't know what Suby charges for it, but I consider the orange can overpriced at Wally, and see little difference in basic construction between the two.

As for the P design, the only filter I ever had leak was a P type design Toyota Denso filter installed by the dealer. Had to be replaced by a new one. Never had a flat gasket design leak.

Thanks for the video.
 
Originally Posted By: Soobs
Originally Posted By: MrWideTires
Good thing none of my subarus have seen oem filters...


Whatcha running?


i bought them all new and changed the oem filter & oil at about 1000 miles.

Now I use PureOnes or Boschs
 
Originally Posted By: Soobs
Something else occured to me today. What if the range that they often give, ie. 12-14PSI, is due to inconsistancies in spring coil lengths? Is that why there is often a PSI range stated? Perhaps it's just a fluke that the spring in the OEM has slightly more coil and if I were to cut open another one it would have the same as the aftermarket?


The range could be from spring inconsistencies, but I think the consensus is that it represents the range of PSI that will make it start to open to fully open. So 12 PSI would be when it starts to open, and 14 PSI is when it is fully open.

Originally Posted By: Soobs
I'm just really beginning to wonder why FRAM would make their Subaru exclusive aftermarket filter with a 12-14PSI and a OEM with 23PSI. Maybe they're both the same?

Subaru states there is a silicone ADBV. There's not. They say the media is a variable density two-ply paper. It's the same as FRAM ExtraGuard with an identical number of pleats.


Seems like Subaru is false advertising to me.

Originally Posted By: Soobs
And finally they say something like "the pressure releif is set to a certain torque setting". Well, we'll see.


It think the same guy who writes assembly instructions for Hibachis also wrote the technical blurb for the Subaru oil filters.
wink.gif
 
I'm lazy so I'll copy my own post from the Forester board.
cheers3.gif


09rexwagon on nasioc measured the relief valve in the new OEM Fram and he claims that it was 23 psi's. He also measured the Tokyo Roki and claimed that it was not 23 psi's as also stated by SoA.

All that aside, I'll be running the blue can of death for 6-7,500 mile OCI's so I'll advise if I have any problems.

I used to always bash Fram because it was fashionable too. Although my dad has run Fram's for a long time and keeps his GM trucks for 250k-350k miles. I know there are a lot of reports of them exploding, although I have not heard of any problems specifically relating to the Subaru OEM's.
banana2.gif
[crosses fingers]
From the bottom of this page

Quote:
Bad news guys. I just cut open the black Tokyo Roki oil filter....it does NOT have the 23.2psi bypass pressure that Subaru calls for. So it wasn't a fib that they did not meet the specifications. The Blue Honeywell filter does however meet the 23.2psi pressure (I measured this myself over 2 filters with 5 totals trials for an average of 23.5psi).

The Tokyo Roki averaged in the high 18psi range. I used a digital scale to get the force that is accurate to the gram so I know that metric is accurate. To dumby check myself, I subtracted .5mm from the diameter of the plunger surface (even though my calipers are accurate to the tenth of a milimeter). Even with that imposed error, the bypass pressure was in the mid 19psi range.

So now the issue is: is it better to have better filtration in a filter that may bypass more frequently, or is it better to have not a great a filtration but has the correct bypass pressure for our high flow oil pumps..


-Dennis
 
From the "Flow vs. PSID" data I got from Purolator, I don't think a 23 psi bypass valve is needed ... at least on a Purolator filter. The filter they tested was for my Vette (PL14006) and is average in size. It only produced ~ 5 PSID at 12 GPM of hot (200 deg F, 5w-30) oil flow. This is way below the 23 psi Subaru specifies. So at least when the oil is hot the PSID would never be even close to 23 psi.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=116457&Number=1619451

Now during cold starts might be a different story, but most people don't reline their engine when cold so shouldn't be an issue as long as the engine isn't raced until the oil is at normal operating temperature.

I'm wondering if Subaru's 23 psi filter bypass specification is some old requirement that has never been updated due modern filters ... or maybe the OEM Subaru filters are just way more restrictive and need the 23 psi bypass valve (??). I've never seen a solid explanation on why Subaru specifies such a high filter bypass setting.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I'm lazy so I'll copy my own post from the Forester board.
cheers3.gif


09rexwagon on nasioc measured the relief valve in the new OEM Fram and he claims that it was 23 psi's. He also measured the Tokyo Roki and claimed that it was not 23 psi's as also stated by SoA.

All that aside, I'll be running the blue can of death for 6-7,500 mile OCI's so I'll advise if I have any problems.

I used to always bash Fram because it was fashionable too. Although my dad has run Fram's for a long time and keeps his GM trucks for 250k-350k miles. I know there are a lot of reports of them exploding, although I have not heard of any problems specifically relating to the Subaru OEM's.
banana2.gif
[crosses fingers]
From the bottom of this page

Quote:
Bad news guys. I just cut open the black Tokyo Roki oil filter....it does NOT have the 23.2psi bypass pressure that Subaru calls for. So it wasn't a fib that they did not meet the specifications. The Blue Honeywell filter does however meet the 23.2psi pressure (I measured this myself over 2 filters with 5 totals trials for an average of 23.5psi).

The Tokyo Roki averaged in the high 18psi range. I used a digital scale to get the force that is accurate to the gram so I know that metric is accurate. To dumby check myself, I subtracted .5mm from the diameter of the plunger surface (even though my calipers are accurate to the tenth of a milimeter). Even with that imposed error, the bypass pressure was in the mid 19psi range.

So now the issue is: is it better to have better filtration in a filter that may bypass more frequently, or is it better to have not a great a filtration but has the correct bypass pressure for our high flow oil pumps..


-Dennis


There seems to be some inconsistancies with what is actually in these blue OEM cans....

I found this at http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1879204

Originally Posted By: 09rexwagon


By09rexwagon

The tokyo roki filter does NOT have the 23.2psi bypass valve. That is why SOA has moved from it. The Honeywell/fram based filter does have a 22-24psi bypass valve. I've tested both. The Tokyo Roki averaged 19.3 psi over my 5 trials. The blue Honeywell has ranged from 21.7psi to 23.5 psi over 10+ trials and 3 different filters. The Blue honeywell has significantly more pleats than the orange can fram has for the the same spec filter (almost 1.7x more).

So the Catch 22 is this: Tokyo Roki: metal endcaps, arguably better media, silicone adbv but wrong bypass. Honeywell, cardboard media, equal sq in of media to Tokyo Roki, but arguably lesser quality media, silicone adbv, and the factory spec adbv.

Will the difference in media matter on a 3750 mil OCI......very likely not.


There's a few glaring problems with this guy's observations of the blue Honeywell oil filter compared to the same filter I opened and videoed. There are not more pleats in the blue can vs. orange can and there is not a silicone ADBV; therefore, I'm wondering if Subaru (or Honeywell) has altered the design of the blue OEM filter since this guy opened one. Also, this makes me wonder if the pressure relief valve has also changed. It was at 23psi when this guy tested it (November 2009), but he also claims to of had a different filter element and ADBV than what I just opened up last week. Something is amiss.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............
 
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