Why would any filter manufacturer advertise here?

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Like I said, many filtration companies use different tests than the one so often regurgitated around here. Take time look for yourself. I’m not going to do it for you.


You made the statement, back it up.

 

[csandste]

Originally Posted By: BJD78
I agree, I have been on this planet for 57 years and have never known anyone with a oil filter or oil failure when even when going a couple thousand miles over the OM OCI. I I have always used the cheapest filter along with the cheapest oil and ran several vehicles well over 300K by changing filter and oil at or about the 5K mark. Have even pushed into the 7K mark on a couple of occasions, though I do try to change at 5K. Have used QS,Fram, Purolator,STP and Napa filters. Perhaps a higher cost filter would filter better, but I always buy used vehicles with 100 to 150K on them and as long as I can put on another 150K or so on them, that is good enough for me. But to each their own.


This. I've owned well over thirty cars and had only one engine failure. That was an over heating problem on a Plymouth Arrow, not oil or filter related. There are many other things that will finally head a car to the scrap heap besides oil and filter quality. I've been on this board since 2002 and I always kind of thought that Fram love was karmic payback for the Fram hate of the Orange Can 'o Death years. If I remember correctly, that folk tale started on a Mopar board from a ticked off ex-employee.

 

[MParr]

Knowing what to look for in filter test data can have a direct bearing on the quality of the selection decision and the cost-effective performance of a filter system. Unless the data has been obtained in a Multi Pass Test to (ANSI (NFPA)T3.10.8.8 RI-1990 or ISO 4572) standard, the results might be altered and a comparison meaningless.

Taken from Cummins Filtration

 

[HonorAndHonesty]

Honestly... How many people are on this board that buy oil filters vs the amount of oil filters sold? Very small percentage. And many that are on here are over analyzers (myself included) that fret about tiny details that Joe public doesn't even think about.

Why go after such a small market share of people that will use your product, then examine it and analyze it (including myself). Your actually asking for trouble, because say a company makes 10 million oil filters a year, most will never be examined post use. Now say in 10 million oil filters a company makes 1000 bad ones with minor/major flaws and one of us gets a hold of it. Oh boy.

I tend to buy what works for me at a price that works for me. I will pay more for better Performance/quality/made in USA. Many will not. And of course that's why you have different grades of napa filters/Fram/Purolators ect. The companies know this.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So I guess my question is this: If you were a filter manufacturer of any brand, why would you want to advertise on this site?


Why wouldn't I want to advertise here if I have a lubricant or filtration or any other automotive product in which I wanted to gain exposure?

 

[HonorAndHonesty]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
So I guess my question is this: If you were a filter manufacturer of any brand, why would you want to advertise on this site?


Why wouldn't I want to advertise here if I have a lubricant or filtration or any other automotive product in which I wanted to gain exposure?


Because we pick everything apart...lol

That's what my wife tells me about myself anyway.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
So we all know that it takes advertising to keep a site like this open, right? You know that this site doesn't operate for free and companies that have an oil-related product come here to pay and put up some advertising. It's how BITOG stays up and running. (Okay, a little money by some members here helps)

So I have a couple of questions that I would like answered.

Question #1: Why would the parent company of Fram ever pay to advertise here? You've got one person on this site who always gives the Fram Ultra or Extra Guard glowing reports no matter what. He's also got a bunch of minions who jump in relentlessly thinking that any other filter besides a Fram will ruin your engine in short time or bashing anybody who uses another brand. Any thread that starts out as a non-Fram thread instantly becomes a Fram thread and the bashing soon starts whenever somebody tells why they didn't use the Fram Ultra or the Extra Guard filter. Fram doesn't need to pay to advertise here, it's FREE!

Question #2: Why would ANY other brand of filter advertise here? Again, there is one person who bashes any other filter besides a Fram. Have you seen the post count of the same member just on a single topic when discussing a competitor's filter? Either the competition is priced higher than Fram and it's a waste of money or I even saw a recent post where a filter was priced too low and shouldn't be used. Again, any non-Fram thread instantly becomes a pro-Fram thread and the arguing begins. The non-Fram manufacturers get bashed because they won't give out proprietary information or get bashed because an email wasn't returned. There are a couple dozen other reasons to get bashed, but the rules don't apply to Fram. The on-Fram companies probably never will advertise here because they constantly get bashed.

So I guess my question is this: If you were a filter manufacturer of any brand, why would you want to advertise on this site?


I think this is all drama queen crying. Like said in threads alluding to this, information is given and people can make up their own minds. And there is way more than "one person" on this site that talks about filters that are good, and many others that talk about filters that are bad. Childish drama queen galore going on here.

People make up their own minds based on what they read ... or they should unless they are weak minded.

 

[JamesBond]

Type "are fram oil filters any good" into google and you'll see why having a big fram banner ad on bitog might be a good way to spend a few advertising bucks.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: MParr
This is a very good discussion. What Hannibal said carries some weight. The mention of the 4548-12 multipass test gets way too much attention. There are many filtration companies that do not even use that particular test. There is no need to list those companies, it’s there for all who choose to look.

What else is there to compare filter efficiency? I guess for those who really don't care about a filter's efficiency the ISO 4548-12 means nothing. Everyone chooses how they percieve quality and performance and end up making their own decisions. People talk daily about filter performance and quality, it's what goes on in the oil filter forum. Some people get their feeling hurt because the can't stand to read about people choosing filters based on data and specs instead of looks and brand name.

Originally Posted By: MParr
Common sense will tell many people that WIX is not going to produce a premium synthetic filter with a 50% efficiency and put an XP or Platinum label on it.

Well, per WIX Tech Line (and once shown on their website before they removed the beta information) they were/are producing a premium synthetic filter with 50% @ 20u efficiency. Can't hide those facts. Seems people go into a drama crying mode like the OP of this thread when they can't accept the facts about products.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Like I said, many filtration companies use different tests than the one so often regurgitated around here. Take time look for yourself. I’m not going to do it for you.

ISO 4548-12 has been the oil filter industries standard since the year 2000. So those that don't use it so customers who care can compare are lacking good information. In fact, I haven't seen any company lately who references any other efficiency test spec besides ISO 4548-12. Those companies typically won't list any test spec, and some will not even tell you what spec was used if you call them. Oil filter test specs are not "proprietary information" ... that's a line of bull when any company give a customer that response.

 

[DuckRyder]

IMO, I’m not sure why anyone would advertise here.

People state things as fact pretty much all the time that aren’t and then someone else repeats it and the next thing you know it is all over the board like it dropped from the sky on a stone tablet.

Perfect example was they guy that masterfully trolled the board that the Purolator tearing thing was due to a dull pleating blade and he tried to explain it to them but they said it was cost savings and now his NDA had run out (or something along those lines). Was all over the board and migrated to at least a couple others before he outed himself. His entire point was that BITOG was full go gullible fools, was he right?

I’m on at least one board that if you state something as fact and can’t back it up - a warning after your public retraction is about the best you can hope for (it is almost guaranteed you’re permanently banned). All representatives of a firm have a tag that says industry representative (it is available without charge but is verified) If you want this place to return to the level of technical competency that is being mourned for its loss, that is what it will have to come to. All the extraneous fluff will have to be excised, the technical bar raised and the rules enforced. As it is, the character of the board is such that the community at large does not require post to be to a high standard.

As it is it is mostly a bunch of clueless skinflints flinging pooo... IMO

 

[ZeeOSix]

The problem is some people confuse members here trying to give facts and backup data on products with what they conceive in their heads as planted "company reps". It's really just fanboyism being expressed in a technical manner. There are a lot of fanboys of certain products on this board, which means there must be a whole lot of "company reps" here (sarcasm).

Talking about people who state things just from their whimsy gut feelings, there is a lot of that going on without anything to back it up. Just like MParr stated above that he can't believe WIX would ever make a full synthetic filter with low efficiency, well many other people didn't believe it either, including me until I called WIX (as did many other members here) and drilled them with many questions about their claim. Maybe he should all WIX and find out first hand. Again, for people who don't really care about filter efficiency, it's a moot point.

Technical facts are king ... not "gut feelings". If someone wants to use any product because of what they feel is good about it, then carry on - it's a free country. I see nobody here forcing anyone to use any specific products. That includes all the talk in the oil forums too. There is probably more argument over engine oils than oil filters. Yes, people try to justify why one product is good or bad over another, and that's all good for discussion and the membership here. If you take all that kind of talk away from a chat board like this, you might as well just remove the board from the internet.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The problem is some people confuse members here trying to give facts and backup data on products with what they conceive in their heads as planted "company reps". It's really just fanboyism being expressed in a technical manner. There are a lot of fanboys of certain products on this board, which means there must be a whole lot of "company reps" here (sarcasm).

Talking about people who state things just from their whimsy gut feelings, there is a lot of that going on without anything to back it up. Just like MParr stated above that he can't believe WIX would ever make a full synthetic filter with low efficiency, well many other people didn't believe it either, including me until I called WIX (as did many other members here) and drilled them with many questions about their claim. Maybe he should all WIX and find out first hand. Again, for people who don't really care about filter efficiency, it's a moot point.

Technical facts are king ... not "gut feelings". If someone wants to use any product because of what they feel is good about it, then carry on - it's a free country. I see nobody here forcing anyone to use any specific products. That includes all the talk in the oil forums too. There is probably more argument over engine oils than oil filters. Yes, people try to justify why one product is good or bad over another, and that's all good for discussion and the membership here. If you take all that kind of talk away from a chat board like this, you might as well just remove the board from the internet.


I wasn’t talking about you if it is any comfort.

Opinions are fine as long as they are stated as such. It is when hogwash is sold as bottled water that it is a problem.

All of the general discussion / wax / earphones / head light bulbs non-sense draws people that know jack about oil or filters, then they migrate out to the oil forums and dilute the wheat with chaff... it is maddening...

You want technical facts, focus the board on the subject, attract people who know the subject, and let people learn that when they post something they are going to have to back it up.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
You want technical facts, focus the board on the subject, attract people who know the subject, and let people learn that when they post something they are going to have to back it up.


Lot's of people here can't grasp the facts ... then they start coming up with "conspiracy theories" to satisfy their misconceptions.

 

[BJD78]

I do kind of like the Fram filters with the rubber grip on the end as it makes it easier to grab and hand tighten and loosen but usually I buy what is cheaper.

 

[blupupher]

Originally Posted By: Hannibal
... That's why calling the tech hotlines will still be your best options for official communications.

Yes, but the official communications are full of fluff and no real answers that are asked.

Call Wix and ask about their filter efficiency.

Call Purolator and ask what is being done about issues with their filter media tearing.

You will not get an answer that is an actual answer.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Like I said, many filtration companies use different tests than the one so often regurgitated around here. Take time look for yourself. I’m not going to do it for you.

This is part of the problem, and the root of many of these discussions. Very, very few oils on the shelf are sold (at least sold seriously) while lacking any API, OEM, and/or ACEA specifications. They all follow SAE J300, too. When it comes to oil filters, though, we have a completely different scenario, where the majority, it would seem, make few if any claims about their efficiency, with advertising that would be, if it were motor oil, akin to talking up the jug design.

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: Hannibal
I think this question could be better answered by the admins. Here's my story...

I know a lot of people in the filter business. I am good friends with a few within the manufacturers. They're on here incognito. However they don't expose themselves for a few reasons.
If they are on here posting as a employee of the filter company they work for and do not identify themselves as such, they in violation of FTC advertising rules, trust me, the fines are very severe when caught

First...this site is informative and helpful...however the main audience really gets lost in the weeds on specs and things like that. The time necessary to satisfy everyone on here would require a full time individual and that won't happen.
I agree and have stated many times on here that using the correct quality oil required by the OE and any name brand quality filter will make your engine last a very long time
Second...there are huge misconceptions about a lot of core things that just aren't worth the hassle trying to fight to change perception. Most people don't have an open mind and therefore can be extremely hard to convince and it becomes the typical internet wizz contest. I see on here constantly where people get mad about how manufacturer XYZ won't post this spec or whatever. They won't because the average consumer doesn't understand that and really just wants to know that if the filter fits AND...it won't leak.
I have to respectfully disagree. All filter companies use the ISO 4548-12 test and if they do not want to publish results, it is because they are not favorable. But you are correct, the average layperson has no idea what it means
Third...the burden of proof is astronomical here. Some guys will blindly believe anything posted or will site marketing specs as truth. Others won't accept anything unless they have signed documentation from the Pres, VP and Engineering VP along with the 4548-12 multi pass test signed in blood.
If a company publishes it and cannot back it up with engineering data, again that is a violation of FTC rules and big fines follow. You have no idea the amount of legal hurdles that have to be jumped to make efficiency and capacity claims. We had to run a dozen cars out to 20k oil changes to be able to advertise 20k capacity on XG filters. Hardly cheap in engineering dollars
I promise...these guys would love to interact here and tell you all the juicy stories...but they can't and won't because of the headaches it represents. Someone on here just posted confidential info from SOMS Tech on sales info...that should never have happened. They know who did it by the way and it just goes to show that there is no honor among thieves.
If they come on here and make statements about the filters that they sell, FTC rules require they identify themselves
The aftermarket filter world is way crazier than you'd expect due to the importers and the race to the bottom. driven by comsumers who only want cheap On here it's viewed as good "competition." That's true for the consumer, but the reason why Fram and Champ tried to stay married and the reason why Mann & Hummel is trying to put the Purolator/Wix marriage to bed is because the filter world is trying to eek out a living selling a product that most people want to complain about costing more than a $1.Indeed

I'll sum up this lengthy diatribe by saying that the filter world is very much aware of BITOG. I guarantee someone will make my point and challenge what I have written and that is fine...it's the internet, man...serious business. That's why calling the tech hotlines will still be your best options for official communications.

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: MParr
This is a very good discussion. What Hannibal said carries some weight. The mention of the 4548-12 multipass test gets way too much attention. There are many filtration companies that do not even use that particular test. There is no need to list those companies, it’s there for all who choose to look. Common sense will tell many people that WIX is not going to produce a premium synthetic filter with a 50% efficiency and put an XP or Platinum label on it. All oil filter companies use ISO 4548-12 testing, it is the standard of the industry. Go look at the filter manufacturers council website fmc.org and see for yourself. And about that WIX XP, call them up and ask them but I get the feeling you really do not want to know the answer

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
So I guess my question is this: If you were a filter manufacturer of any brand, why would you want to advertise on this site?


Why wouldn't I want to advertise here if I have a lubricant or filtration or any other automotive product in which I wanted to gain exposure?


Because one particular member feels he dominates the oil filter subforum and will relentlously hound any poster with a different opinion. If you were to list all the issues from 0 to 6 that is z #1 problem with filter manufacturers advertising on this for0m.