Why I Call Dex-Cool "Deathcool"...
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Interesting, onion, I don't remember anyone bringing up this aspect before. Being the owner of a car myself that is notorious for blowing head gaskets in all sorts of fun and interesting ways, I've seen "DexSludge" on many occasions when the gasket becomes damaged enough for oil/water to mix (Whether in the oil or in the cooling system or both). Except this is with Toyota LLC which has none of the speculated trouble maker 2-EHA.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake.
Yes they do! The older GM 350s in trucks and Suvs have coolant passages at the front and rear of the intake manifold. The new GM truck engines have dry intake manifolds.
There's plenty of UOA posted here with those engines (and they're baby brother, the 4.3L) with failed IMG and coolant in the oil.
3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, and 7.4 GM engines are all known intake gasket leakers. They were even cited in the infamous GM Dexcool class action lawsuit!
Don't believe any V8s were in the class action suit.
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/notice.pdf
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake.
Yes they do! The older GM 350s in trucks and Suvs have coolant passages at the front and rear of the intake manifold. The new GM truck engines have dry intake manifolds.
There's plenty of UOA posted here with those engines (and they're baby brother, the 4.3L) with failed IMG and coolant in the oil.
3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, and 7.4 GM engines are all known intake gasket leakers. They were even cited in the infamous GM Dexcool class action lawsuit!
Don't believe any V8s were in the class action suit.
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/notice.pdf
Quote:
For those of you who are suprised to read this post... just you wait. There's more to come.
This should be interesting.
For those of you who are suprised to read this post... just you wait. There's more to come.
This should be interesting.
Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake.
Yes they do! The older GM 350s in trucks and Suvs have coolant passages at the front and rear of the intake manifold. The new GM truck engines have dry intake manifolds.
There's plenty of UOA posted here with those engines (and they're baby brother, the 4.3L) with failed IMG and coolant in the oil.
3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, and 7.4 GM engines are all known intake gasket leakers. They were even cited in the infamous GM Dexcool class action lawsuit!
Don't believe any V8s were in the class action suit.
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/notice.pdf
I stand corrected, but the 5.7L GM V-8 is a well known intake gasket leaker. The info is out there if you search for it.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake.
Yes they do! The older GM 350s in trucks and Suvs have coolant passages at the front and rear of the intake manifold. The new GM truck engines have dry intake manifolds.
There's plenty of UOA posted here with those engines (and they're baby brother, the 4.3L) with failed IMG and coolant in the oil.
3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, and 7.4 GM engines are all known intake gasket leakers. They were even cited in the infamous GM Dexcool class action lawsuit!
Don't believe any V8s were in the class action suit.
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/notice.pdf
I stand corrected, but the 5.7L GM V-8 is a well known intake gasket leaker. The info is out there if you search for it.
There are a few 5.7 motors. The late 90s trucks used the Vortec series based on the 350 SBC engine. Camaros (prior to '98) and Corvettes (prior to '97) used the LT1 5.7, and in a few cases, the similar LT4. After that, the Camaros and Vettes used the 5.7 LS1, which, like all the LSX series, has a dry manifold. The 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0 are similar, also with a dry manifold.
I'm not sure about the LT1 and LT4 engines, but I am not aware of LIM gasket problems with those cars. The 5.7 Vortec is the engine that had almost universal problems with Dexcool starting in '96. I believe, but am not sure, the similar engines for that period, the 4.3L, 5.0L and 7.4L engines were also effected.
I've never gotten sludge with any of my Dexcool problems, probably in the truck's case because I caught it before the problem got major. In the 3.4 Alero's case, because the leaks were so large, the ignorants that were running it allowed it to quickly run out of coolant, and just replaced it with tap water.
I'm not sure about the LT1 and LT4 engines, but I am not aware of LIM gasket problems with those cars. The 5.7 Vortec is the engine that had almost universal problems with Dexcool starting in '96. I believe, but am not sure, the similar engines for that period, the 4.3L, 5.0L and 7.4L engines were also effected.
I've never gotten sludge with any of my Dexcool problems, probably in the truck's case because I caught it before the problem got major. In the 3.4 Alero's case, because the leaks were so large, the ignorants that were running it allowed it to quickly run out of coolant, and just replaced it with tap water.
Yes, it is the Vortec 350 truck engines and not the LT1/LT4 engines that were intake gasket blowers.
Indeed, the 4.3L, 5.0, and 7.4L engines were also affected. I've dealt with two blown 4.3Ls. One so severe, that engine was filled to the tops of the valve covers with antifreeze!
Indeed, the 4.3L, 5.0, and 7.4L engines were also affected. I've dealt with two blown 4.3Ls. One so severe, that engine was filled to the tops of the valve covers with antifreeze!
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Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
As I'm sure you know, some engines got a double whammy. 1) They had a flimsy gasket that would probably leak eventually anyway with any coolant, but also was probably incompatible with Dexcool, so Dexcool does have some blame for deterioating nylon or other certain gaskets.
And 2) engines like the 4.3 also had an incompatible cooling system with the cap on the radiator. Dexcool does earn some blame for being incompatible with air in the system. Actually, the 4.3 had another "whammy" by being all iron.
Combine those 2 and you have dropping coolant level from the IMG leak leading to air in the system and sludging and gumming and coolant in the oil.
However, if you have compatible gaskets and a pressurized reservoir and don't allow the coolant level to drop too low from some leak, then Dexcool works pretty good. That's why I am not ready to totally throw it out or dismiss it.
One thing that is never mentioned much is, the most important gasket, the head gaskets. They didn't seem to have the issue of compatibility with dexcool that the IMG's did. But some head gaskets did leak early and it makes me wonder.
And 2) engines like the 4.3 also had an incompatible cooling system with the cap on the radiator. Dexcool does earn some blame for being incompatible with air in the system. Actually, the 4.3 had another "whammy" by being all iron.
Combine those 2 and you have dropping coolant level from the IMG leak leading to air in the system and sludging and gumming and coolant in the oil.
However, if you have compatible gaskets and a pressurized reservoir and don't allow the coolant level to drop too low from some leak, then Dexcool works pretty good. That's why I am not ready to totally throw it out or dismiss it.
One thing that is never mentioned much is, the most important gasket, the head gaskets. They didn't seem to have the issue of compatibility with dexcool that the IMG's did. But some head gaskets did leak early and it makes me wonder.
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
I completely disagree. I keep seeing "People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later." stated every where on this forum.
Even in maintained cooling systems if you got the garbage gaskets you will have a failure. I had failures in my truck even though I changed and flushed the coolant every 2 years. My father suffered one even though he changed the coolant every 2-3 years.
As far as the head gaskets go, they didnt have a problem with overtorqueing and getting crused with horrid bold procedures.
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
I completely disagree. I keep seeing "People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later." stated every where on this forum.
Even in maintained cooling systems if you got the garbage gaskets you will have a failure. I had failures in my truck even though I changed and flushed the coolant every 2 years. My father suffered one even though he changed the coolant every 2-3 years.
As far as the head gaskets go, they didnt have a problem with overtorqueing and getting crused with horrid bold procedures.
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Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
[Self-edited in the interest of a civil discussion]
Gaskets, which worked properly with other antifreezes, failed when used in conjuntion with Dexcool. Both the gaskets and the coolant were not properly long-term tested with each other, or the test results were ignored. Which element was at fault? If they don't play well together, both are. It's simple Systems Engineering 101.
Like has been mentioned numerous times in this post, if you are willing to read (which hasn't been demonstrated at this point) it doesn't matter how well you maintain the cooling system. Dexcool and the gaskets GM used are incompatible. Other antifreezes aren't incompatible with the [probably] poorly designed gaskets.
There are many applications where Dexcool works as advertised. There are others where, no matter how well you maintain the system, castrophic failures result. You cannot support the statement "Dexcool works fine" with any form of logic unless you can prove there were no associated failures. I believe if you Google the subject, you will find your position is unsupportable.
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
[Self-edited in the interest of a civil discussion]
Gaskets, which worked properly with other antifreezes, failed when used in conjuntion with Dexcool. Both the gaskets and the coolant were not properly long-term tested with each other, or the test results were ignored. Which element was at fault? If they don't play well together, both are. It's simple Systems Engineering 101.
Like has been mentioned numerous times in this post, if you are willing to read (which hasn't been demonstrated at this point) it doesn't matter how well you maintain the cooling system. Dexcool and the gaskets GM used are incompatible. Other antifreezes aren't incompatible with the [probably] poorly designed gaskets.
There are many applications where Dexcool works as advertised. There are others where, no matter how well you maintain the system, castrophic failures result. You cannot support the statement "Dexcool works fine" with any form of logic unless you can prove there were no associated failures. I believe if you Google the subject, you will find your position is unsupportable.
Another thing. Neither my '97 truck nor my '02 LS1 Camaro have pressurized recovery tanks. While the unpressurized overflow tanks themselves can get a bit dirty (they are throughly cleaned when the radiators are flushed) there is no evidence of sludge in the radiators of either vehicle.
My argument doesn't address the sludging issue, only the gasket incompatibility one.
My argument doesn't address the sludging issue, only the gasket incompatibility one.
Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
[Self-edited in the interest of a civil discussion]
Gaskets, which worked properly with other antifreezes, failed when used in conjuntion with Dexcool. Both the gaskets and the coolant were not properly long-term tested with each other, or the test results were ignored. Which element was at fault? If they don't play well together, both are. It's simple Systems Engineering 101.
Like has been mentioned numerous times in this post, if you are willing to read (which hasn't been demonstrated at this point) it doesn't matter how well you maintain the cooling system. Dexcool and the gaskets GM used are incompatible. Other antifreezes aren't incompatible with the [probably] poorly designed gaskets.
There are many applications where Dexcool works as advertised. There are others where, no matter how well you maintain the system, castrophic failures result. You cannot support the statement "Dexcool works fine" with any form of logic unless you can prove there were no associated failures. I believe if you Google the subject, you will find your position is unsupportable.
Though at the same time I am pretty sure GM's bean counters had already gotten to buying lower quality gaskets. As I had a 95 305 that never saw dex as the switch over happened in 96 and still had to get an IMG replaced.
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
[Self-edited in the interest of a civil discussion]
Gaskets, which worked properly with other antifreezes, failed when used in conjuntion with Dexcool. Both the gaskets and the coolant were not properly long-term tested with each other, or the test results were ignored. Which element was at fault? If they don't play well together, both are. It's simple Systems Engineering 101.
Like has been mentioned numerous times in this post, if you are willing to read (which hasn't been demonstrated at this point) it doesn't matter how well you maintain the cooling system. Dexcool and the gaskets GM used are incompatible. Other antifreezes aren't incompatible with the [probably] poorly designed gaskets.
There are many applications where Dexcool works as advertised. There are others where, no matter how well you maintain the system, castrophic failures result. You cannot support the statement "Dexcool works fine" with any form of logic unless you can prove there were no associated failures. I believe if you Google the subject, you will find your position is unsupportable.
Though at the same time I am pretty sure GM's bean counters had already gotten to buying lower quality gaskets. As I had a 95 305 that never saw dex as the switch over happened in 96 and still had to get an IMG replaced.
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
+1
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
+1
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Originally Posted By: PT1
Dexcool is fine. Gaskets were bad. People who don't maintain their cooling system will all have problems sooner or later.
The rest of this entire thread is hype.
Baloney. Ford tested 2-EHA antifreeze in the late 90s and it was factory fill in one application. Surprise surprise, they had problems and found it to be a plasticizer.
Other coolants have no problems with plastic gaskets or radiator cap designs.
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Please tell us what the plasticizer component of G-05 is.
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Please tell us what the plasticizer component of G-05 is.
Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Please tell us what the plasticizer component of G-05 is.
The inhibitor additive pack maybe?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yes I'd agree. I think what it was 2-EHA is/was a slow plasticizer. But not slow enough to not cause problems much too quickly with certain plastics. I also believe perhaps some other coolants maybe like G-05 also might be plastizer just they take much longer and are less agresssive in the way they deteriorate certain types of plastics or gaskets. I base this off of reading a Dupont paper. I sure would like to know what that SAE paper says about coolants and gasket deterioration Petethefarmer linked in another thread.
Please tell us what the plasticizer component of G-05 is.
The inhibitor additive pack maybe?
What was wrong with the old green antifreeze?? I use it in my car (97 Avalon) and when the radiator went south (after 12 yrs the plastic tank cracked, nothing to do with the antifreeze) you could eat out of it!
Yeah I don't think there's really anything wrong with old Green. It may not have the idea starting PH for aluminum doesn't last as long and has silicates but other than that it is about as good as G-05 IMO. The thing is plenty of people used Green in Japanese cars for years and it seemed to work well and not really shorten watere pump life.
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