Why I Call Dex-Cool "Deathcool"...

[EricG]

Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
You can remain perplexed all you want. Your ancedotial evidence doesn't mask the fact that Dexcool caused a lot of problems with LIMs in the mid-late 90s and the early 2000s. Those problems usually showed up after the warranty expired.

I special ordered and bought a '97 C2500HD with the 5.7 Vortec engine. Followed a rigorous maintenance schedule, and expected the truck to last forever. At the 7 year point, the LIM gasket failed. After examining the mushed (sorry about the "technical" term) gasket, I'd bet the farm that the problem was caused by Dexcool.

I bought my father-in-law a '01 Alero with the 3.4. It came back about a year ago with massive coolant leaks from the LIM and the thermostat bypass pipe. I believe these leaks were caused by a poor design with the bypass pipe, and the LIM bolts becoming loose. Dexcool may have played a contributing factor, but I would not bet the farm on that one.

I've also bought a '02 Z-28 Camaro. No problems with the cooling system on this beast.

GM developed Dexcool, and gets a licensing fee for every gallon sold. You wonder why they won't admit the stuff is [censored], and caused problems in a lot of previously reliable vehicles? It's become a company run by accountants, and I've probably bought my last one because of the Deathcool fiasco.
Surely none of those intake gaskets that failed were due to a inferior gasket design. GM & Fel-Pro both came out with improved gaskets that solved the problem of premature gasket failure. Dexcool is not the best coolant but those gasket failures can not all be blamed on the coolant.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

OK fine, but it's already been said many times before that it can be riskier running Dexcool in a non-pressurized reservoir system. What he is saying is still not totally accurate for non-pressurized reservoirs though because for what he's suggesting to happen there would still need to be a problem with the cap and reservoir hose for there to be a real problem.


But that IS my point!!! Out in the real world, caps and reservoirs and hoses do develop leaks.

A "problem" that could go on for years and not cause damage in a conventional or HOAT-filled cooling system turns into a mess with DexCool. It is poor design to allow a $10 failure to cause a total system failure.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

OK fine, but it's already been said many times before that it can be riskier running Dexcool in a non-pressurized reservoir system. What he is saying is still not totally accurate for non-pressurized reservoirs though because for what he's suggesting to happen there would still need to be a problem with the cap and reservoir hose for there to be a real problem.


But that IS my point!!! Out in the real world, caps and reservoirs and hoses do develop leaks.

A "problem" that could go on for years and not cause damage in a conventional or HOAT-filled cooling system turns into a mess with DexCool. It is poor design to allow a $10 failure to cause a total system failure.



OK and this point has been conceded many times by me and others. All I always say I do not trust dexcool and dexclones are a non-pressurized reservoir system. But my point is if you have a presurized reservoir a leak will not allow any significant air to enter the system provided the reservoir does not alowed to get emptied. It's two different things from the radiator cap design.

 

[AuthorEditor]

Can anyone explain to me the corporate mindset that allows a problem like Dexcool to go on and on? OK, just for the sake of argument lets say that GM really truly believes that Dexcool is the greatest coolant the world has ever known and is just getting a bad rap? So what! Why stick with it, even if it is great, if it is causing such a huge public relations and legal headache? Why not just change the color of the coolant to purple and change one or two ingredients and call it SuperCool and be done with it? Why dig in your heels for more than a decade and still stick with something people are calling Deathcool? I just can't understand it. It seems to be a lose lose strategy. Of course judging by GM's recent financial problems, maybe this is a tiny clue as to what is going on over there.

 

[onion]

I can't say why- but this sort of thing isn't THAT uncommon.

I've seen a similar mentality with some heavy equipment manufacturers. Rather than address a relatively simple problem, they blame the end user, blame the service technicians, blame suppliers... anybody but themselves. Finger-pointed is a time-honored short-term strategery for getting through the day... but makes for [censored] poor marketing. Looks like a failure of leadership to me.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Can anyone explain to me the corporate mindset that allows a problem like Dexcool to go on and on? OK, just for the sake of argument lets say that GM really truly believes that Dexcool is the greatest coolant the world has ever known and is just getting a bad rap? So what! Why stick with it, even if it is great, if it is causing such a huge public relations and legal headache? Why not just change the color of the coolant to purple and change one or two ingredients and call it SuperCool and be done with it? Why dig in your heels for more than a decade and still stick with something people are calling Deathcool? I just can't understand it. It seems to be a lose lose strategy. Of course judging by GM's recent financial problems, maybe this is a tiny clue as to what is going on over there.


You raise a good question. The only thing that I can come up with that makes sense is GM may have thought that switching coolants would've made them more liable since they had lawsuits over Dexcool. But I don't know, on the other hand GM saying Dexcool must be used may have opened them up to more liability too during that time period. I personally think it is arrogance and poor management. No offense to good managers but arrogance and poor performance seems to be common among management. There could be more to it, as in it would cost a lot of money to switch coolants, but I think it would be money well spent just to improve the brand's image.

I think now to keep Dexcool is a liablity to GM. I think GM should've dropped Dexcool like a hot potato at the first sign of problems and turned their back on Texaco for marketing them such an unproven product. What did GM know and when did they know it? Well all I know is GM defended Dexcool well after they admitted it doesn't like air in the system. I just wished they would've axed Dexcool before it got so entrenched. And now it's the leading selling coolant with all makes versions being sold.

I wish GM would switch to something tht everyone can be happy with and maybe we could have a truely universal or as near universal coolant as before again.

Another even better question is why did GM take so long, at least 9 years, to address the gasket issues in some cases? Meanwhile they were doing all kinds of nice little updates to the same engines that weren't needed. By the time they addressed it they basically were about to discontinue the engine series anyway. It makes no sense.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Another even better question is why did GM take so long, at least 9 years, to address the gasket issues in some cases? Meanwhile they were doing all kinds of nice little updates to the same engines that weren't needed. By the time they addressed it they basically were about to discontinue the engine series anyway. It makes no sense.


Excellent point! As unhappy as I am at having to replace my IMG on my truck the first time, I am going to be really unhappy (trying to avoid another censured word here) at having to do the job again in a couple of years. That's because I thought my problem was a unique event, and I replaced the gasket with the factory one, and continued to use Dexcool. It wasn't until a couple of years after the problem developed that I looked it up on the internet and found it was common, and caused by a design effect.

I've bought 5 new GM trucks and 5 new GM cars in the last 13 years. No more.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
You can remain perplexed all you want. Your ancedotial evidence doesn't mask the fact that Dexcool caused a lot of problems with LIMs in the mid-late 90s and the early 2000s. Those problems usually showed up after the warranty expired.

I special ordered and bought a '97 C2500HD with the 5.7 Vortec engine. Followed a rigorous maintenance schedule, and expected the truck to last forever. At the 7 year point, the LIM gasket failed. After examining the mushed (sorry about the "technical" term) gasket, I'd bet the farm that the problem was caused by Dexcool.


First you bad mouth my "anecdotal" evidence based on FLEET ownership, not individual cars. I buy Vans/Trucks like some people buy groceries!

Then you quote one anecdotal case? Then a maybe?

I bet you weren't on the debate team!

 

[wgtoys]

Originally Posted By: davefr
Here's what I don't understand. If Dexcool really has issues then why hasn't GM dropped it given the years and years of controversy?

I can't image a scenario where bankrupt GM would continue to stick with a supplier that provides an inferior product and increases their warranty claims/exposure.

Can anyone reconcile this little tidbit?

I've seen the slight froth of Dexcool sludge at the filler neck and overflow bottle but the actual radiators have been pristine. This is in contrast to other radiators with std green that have solder bloom and corrosion even though they've been well maintained.

If G05 is superior to Dexcool then why hasn't GM embraced it??


If GM had its act together it would still be the world's largest automaker and wouldn't have had to be bailed out by the feds.

 

[wgtoys]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Can anyone explain to me the corporate mindset that allows a problem like Dexcool to go on and on? OK, just for the sake of argument lets say that GM really truly believes that Dexcool is the greatest coolant the world has ever known and is just getting a bad rap? So what! Why stick with it, even if it is great, if it is causing such a huge public relations and legal headache? Why not just change the color of the coolant to purple and change one or two ingredients and call it SuperCool and be done with it? Why dig in your heels for more than a decade and still stick with something people are calling Deathcool? I just can't understand it. It seems to be a lose lose strategy. Of course judging by GM's recent financial problems, maybe this is a tiny clue as to what is going on over there.


Some executives live by two very wrong-headed maxims:

"Never admit to anything."

"Often wrong, but never in doubt."

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Can anyone explain to me the corporate mindset that allows a problem like Dexcool to go on and on?


The same thinking that prevented Toyota from admitting to sludge in engines, faulty accelerator control software, etc. At some level, admitting to a bad design or decision opens the floodgates of claims from consumers.

Plus I think there was the honest belief that "just one more little design change will end the problems for good," and truth be told I doubt any cars being sold TODAY will ever have problems with DexCool.

Also, it turns out that 2EHA is a really cheap organic acid to use because its a byproduct of other manufacturing processes.

 

[edwardh1]

The OMC evinrude and johnson products - they blamed users for years- salt water, bad gas, owner abuse til the Japanese got in the game

 

[AuthorEditor]

Yeah, and OMC went bankrupt and was bought by Bombardier. Since when do consumers have to adapt their practices to match what the manufacturer produces? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around in capitalism? Aren't products supposed to meet the demands of the market?

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

First you bad mouth my "anecdotal" evidence based on FLEET ownership, not individual cars. I buy Vans/Trucks like some people buy groceries!

Then you quote one anecdotal case? Then a maybe?

I bet you weren't on the debate team!


You may have had good luck with your fleets, but I'd bet there was something different in either the maintenance, operation or other factors. Maybe the vehicles never reached the time limits in your fleets where the problem showed up. From what I've observed, the problem is a time rather than a mileage issue.

It's not just one case. It's either 10s or 100s of thousands. In addition to internet research, I've asked everybody I've run into with the same year truck as mine, and well over half of the ones I've spoken to (origninal owners only) have had to replace the IMG.

No excuse for my spelling error. And nope, I wasn't on the debate team. I'm an engineer and analyst, and I understand something about scientific process. If you are defending the performance of Dexcool in '90s GMs, you are just wrong.

 

[mechanicx]

Well the LIMG failure rate with dexcool on the 95-03 60 degree V6 is about 100%. It might take 100k miles but it will fail prematurely eventually. Changing the Dexcool more regularly does nothing to help. Most will start leaking within 60K miles or about 4-5 years, so just past warranty , just not everyone notices it yet. the problem with the blazers probably also aproached 100%.

There were were 2 or 3 GM vehicles that had poor and incompatible IMG and cooling systems for Dexcool and would just about all develop a problem. Other GM vehicles from the same period would never develop a problem. The thing is those problem vehicles constituted many of the total models sold. And the big problem was it wasn't properly addressed for up to 9 years in some cases if ever.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake. I owned a BUNCH of these and they routinely were driven to 300-400K miles!!!

I don't care how many years you had one, our duty cycle is almost incomparable. We run these trucks as stationary power sources all day long.

I am absolutely in agreement about the V6'ers. That is indeed normal for the IMG to fail. I'm not denying it was [censored] for years, just trying to see how a 5.7 got in there.

But the newer GM V8 4.8/5.3/6.0 has a 'dry' intake manifold design.

Please explain how dex could do anything to/with that?

 

[bullwinkle]

My company had 20+ Express & Savana 2500 5.7 vans from '99 & '00-at least half of them had IM gasket failure, none over 6 years old, highest mileage was around 200K-they dumped them for the Ford 6.0 diesels!

Talk about making it worse!

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I'm more interested in the example of the 5.7 motor. These have never exhibited this problem much if at all, as there is no coolant in the intake.


Yes they do! The older GM 350s in trucks and Suvs have coolant passages at the front and rear of the intake manifold. The new GM truck engines have dry intake manifolds.

There's plenty of UOA posted here with those engines (and they're baby brother, the 4.3L) with failed IMG and coolant in the oil.

3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, and 7.4 GM engines are all known intake gasket leakers. They were even cited in the infamous GM Dexcool class action lawsuit!

 

[defektes]

The 5.7 motor did for a fact experience this leak. My father owns a 5.7 Surburban and it had dexcool. Sure enough he had to replace the LIM gasket on it.

If the 4.3 experiences' the leak then the 5.7 sure enough will anyways since they are almost identical.

I do agree though that there is no reason to remove Dexcool from dry intakes like the ones you cited above. 4.8, 5.3 etc...

 

[onion]

Season's Greetings, Defektes.

Ditto on all that. While GM's 60-degree V6 engines seemed to suffer the most consistent and catastrophic cases of dex-sludge, they were definitely not the only ones.

I've been one of the more prolific and adamant Dexcool-haters around here for some time... my very SOUL was scarred from years of hateful experience with DexSludge. But it's been theraputic, and I've begun to moderate my position.

It's common knowledge these days that dex-sludge is primarily iron oxide. And I know from experience that leaking intake gaskets can and will cause oil to enter the coolant (if you have to ask how, then don't bother). So I think it's reasonable to assume that the sticky, tenacious sludge that I hate with a Purple Passion is a combination of the two. And that would explain why a vehicle's propensity to form DexSludge is roughly proportional to the failure rate of the intake manifold gaskets.

And after all these years, SURELY seal incompatibilities have been addressed- at least in GM vehicles.

So I'll have to grudgingly admit that in applications where intake gasket failure is relatively rare, the vehicle is in good condition, and the cooling system is regularly checked and maintained... there really isn't anything wrong with running Dexcool. Just understand that under certain conditions, Dexcool WILL do nasty things.

I still won't be running Dexcool in my own vehicles, but I feel that my days as a Dexcool Prophet of Sludge are coming to an end.

For those of you who are suprised to read this post... just you wait. There's more to come.