Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future

Messages
3,277
Location
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Elkins45
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops. Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels. As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.
Renewable source power such as solar and wind is so unreliable, 100% conventional power backup is a requirement. Renewables will not be cost viable for H production for decades, if ever.
 
Messages
15,070
Location
Upper Midwest
Thermodynamically I'm not sure how you could pick a worse feed stock for hydrogen production than water, a highly stable oxide. Reforming natural gas is a much better option but then why not just use the methane in the first place? Neither one is ideal since the energy density is so low compared to a liquid.
 
Messages
42,965
Location
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Elkins45
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops. Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels. As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.
The scale required to do that is essentially impossible. Electrolysis is horrifically inefficient, which is why all current hydrogen production is done via gas extraction. The only viable solution that I've seen mentioned is using waste heat from UHT nukes to separate it as a byproduct, while simultaneously generating electricity.
 
Messages
1,122
Location
Wisconsin
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The scale required to do that is essentially impossible. Electrolysis is horrifically inefficient, which is why all current hydrogen production is done via gas extraction. The only viable solution that I've seen mentioned is using waste heat from UHT nukes to separate it as a byproduct, while simultaneously generating electricity.
To put things into perspective A car running off COMPRESSED AIR is several times more efficient than a hydrogen car and you get free air conditioning. Yet a compressed air car is considered a joke while hydrogen (by some accounts) isn't
 
Messages
947
Location
Suomi
Originally Posted by BucDan
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.
Big time they will. Toyota living in a fantasy world.
 
Messages
6,854
Location
California
Originally Posted by BucDan
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.
Toyota should commercially market their fuel cells to the heavy-duty market IMO.
 
Messages
3,277
Location
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by BucDan
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.
Toyota should commercially market their fuel cells to the heavy-duty market IMO.
Which makes the case even worse for H powered fuel cells. Energy density is "everything" for Class 8 - especially long haul. Used to spec long haul and we tried everything to get more diesel within the legal wheelbase. And it doesn't get more energy dense than diesel.
 
Top