Torque Specs Site

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


I wouldn't call factory service manual "generic published specifications". They are specifications developed and used by the vehicle manufacturers and their dealership repair facilities all over the world.

You think they are going to lackadaisicaly print torque requirements and specification to be used all over the world and not think about any legal ramifications of specifying torque specs that could cause any kind of dangerous situation?

If anybody can't trust the factory service manual torque specs, then the only other option they have is to hire an engineering staff and a testing laboratory to test out the required torque specs of every fastener ever used on any vehicle.


Not everyone of course but many do and they are not shy about it ( just secretive). I'm not speaking in absolutes for 'every company" in "every situation" but in industry in general.

If you doubt that, ask them for their quality policy and testing criteria- see what you get.

Now obviously this exceeds just things like torque specs but that's actually a big thing on things like paper machines, mills, crushers and other heavy machinery. ( not the average car obviously) but the essence is the same.

I don't "think" they do it, like I said, I know it factually and have a career being one of those PE's who have to validate and test those "specifications" both on the design and FEED end and on the forensic failure end when things break.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So let's get back to the basics of the purpose of this thread. It's ventured off into the weeds quite a bit IMO.

If the OP can't trust a factory service manual then exactly who is he to trust for torque specs and procedures on his specific vehicle.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
So let's get back to the basics of the purpose of this thread. It's ventured off into the weeds quite a bit IMO.

If the OP can't trust a factory service manual then exactly who is he to trust for torque specs and procedures on his specific vehicle.


The OP asked for a reliable site for torque specs- had nothing to do with trust of a manual or anything else.

The commentary was specifically addressing the reliability ( accuracy and applicability) of specs in general so how was that OT?

In terms of fruit of the vine, I simply went to the root.

And in context (not straw), nowhere was it said to not use a manual or published specification- it was cautioned not to arbitrarily accept it as immutable fact in all cases and to proceed with a reasonable bit of caution based on specific criteria.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
So let's get back to the basics of the purpose of this thread. It's ventured off into the weeds quite a bit IMO.

If the OP can't trust a factory service manual then exactly who is he to trust for torque specs and procedures on his specific vehicle.


The OP asked for a reliable site for torque specs- had nothing to do with trust of a manual or anything else.


What's more reliable than the factory service manual? What other published specs should he rely on (trusted) instead?

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
And in context (not straw), nowhere was it said to not use a manual or published specification- it was cautioned not to arbitrarily accept it as immutable fact in all cases and to proceed with a reasonable bit of caution based on specific criteria.


So what are you going to do in lieu of "arbitrarily accepting" the published factory service manual specs? Hire that engineering team and build a research and testing lab to develop your own torque specs, lol?

What reference do you rely on when torquing fasteners on your vehicles?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


What's more reliable than the factory service manual? What other published specs should he trust instead?



So what are you going to do in lieu of "arbitrarily accepting" the published factory service manual specs? Hire that engineering team and build a research and testing lab to develop your own torque specs, lol?


To point one- referencing a "published spec' other than OEM is very risky unless that spec has the testing data to validate it independently- how many 3rd party specification sources do that? How would one know the validity or accuracy of these 3rd party specs without that data?

Same with the OEM data- people ASSUME it got there by vigorous and well vetted testing but that aint always the case. Try asking and see what you get then we can revisit that subject.

To point two- there is nothing wrong with using published specifications ( no matter how you try to twist what I say into something I didn't say) and in most cases that will be adequate ( again also stated and never disputed by me) but when its not adequate or even suspect then other measures have to be taken and that will depend on several factors such as the criticality of the needs, finances available, resources available etc.

Lots of straw points you keep raising hoping somehow what I have said will somehow change but I brought the combine and baler.

 

[doitmyself]

I give up, lol. A snipe hunt would have been equally productive.

I agree with you: "there is nothing wrong with using published specifications and in most cases that will be adequate"

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


What's more reliable than the factory service manual? What other published specs should he trust instead?

So what are you going to do in lieu of "arbitrarily accepting" the published factory service manual specs? Hire that engineering team and build a research and testing lab to develop your own torque specs, lol?

To point one- referencing a "published spec' other than OEM is very risky unless that spec has the testing data to validate it independently- how many 3rd party specification sources do that? How would one know the validity or accuracy of these 3rd party specs without that data?


That's what I said in my very first post - OEM would be the factory service manual. So you're saying there are not any better references than the factory service manual unless someone has proven that the factory service manual is wrong. Who's going to verify every called out torque spec in a factory service manual?

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
[To point two- there is nothing wrong with using published specifications ( no matter how you try to twist what I say into something I didn't say) and in most cases that will be adequate ( again also stated and never disputed by me) but when its not adequate or even suspect then other measures have to be taken and that will depend on several factors such as the criticality of the needs, finances available, resources available etc.

Lots of straw points you keep raising hoping somehow what I have said will somehow change but I brought the combine and baler.


I'm not twisting anything. My whole point in every post I've made is that if you can't trust the factory service manual you can't trust any source. And I'd challenge anyone to find where a 3rd party has found a blatant torque spec error in a vehicle manufacturer's factory service manual. If there are any, they are typically corrected pretty quickly by the manufacturer. I'm sure there are a few out there, but it's a rarity, not the norm.

So again ... what other torque spec source is better than a manufacture's official service manual.

The "straw" in this discussion is all the tangents shooting off and talking about how nobody should trust anybody's torque spec.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


What reference do you rely on when torquing fasteners on your vehicles?


In truth I'm not the best person to answer that because 99.9% of everything I have to critically tension is not automotive in any way.( other than my own stuff)

I use a torque wrench for gaskets and such where even loading is a good thing for sealing- torque stick for lugs and non critical fasteners for speed and those are low risk applications.

Anything else general I use indicator and thread method( just what I'm used to)

For structural members I use load indicating washers

For heavy equipment and loading I use eddy current, bolt scan or UT as applicable.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

What reference do you rely on when torquing fasteners on your vehicles?


In truth I'm not the best person to answer that because 99.9% of everything I have to critically tension is not automotive in any way.( other than my own stuff)

I use a torque wrench for gaskets and such where even loading is a good thing for sealing- torque stick for lugs and non critical fasteners for speed and those are low risk applications.


Well, we are talking about cars here (which all have a factory service manual that have been developed by their engineers) ... so yeah, you've produced more "straw" than me.

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Anything else general I use indicator and thread method (just what I'm used to)

For structural members I use load indicating washers

For heavy equipment and loading I use eddy current, bolt scan or UT as applicable.


And probably all per someone's developed specs/requirements ... how do you know they are all trustworthy?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


What's more reliable than the factory service manual? What other published specs should he trust instead?

So what are you going to do in lieu of "arbitrarily accepting" the published factory service manual specs? Hire that engineering team and build a research and testing lab to develop your own torque specs, lol?

To point one- referencing a "published spec' other than OEM is very risky unless that spec has the testing data to validate it independently- how many 3rd party specification sources do that? How would one know the validity or accuracy of these 3rd party specs without that data?


That's what I said in my very first post - OEM would be the factory service manual. So you're saying there are not any better references than the factory service manual unless someone has proven that the factory service manual is wrong. Who's going to verify every called out torque spec in a factory service manual?

Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
[To point two- there is nothing wrong with using published specifications ( no matter how you try to twist what I say into something I didn't say) and in most cases that will be adequate ( again also stated and never disputed by me) but when its not adequate or even suspect then other measures have to be taken and that will depend on several factors such as the criticality of the needs, finances available, resources available etc.

Lots of straw points you keep raising hoping somehow what I have said will somehow change but I brought the combine and baler.


I'm not twisting anything. My whole point in every post I've made is that if you can't trust the factory service manual you can't trust any source. And I'd challenge anyone to find where a 3rd party has found a blatant torque spec error in a vehicle manufacturer's factory service manual. If there are any, they are typically corrected pretty quickly by the manufacturer. I'm sure there are a few out there, but it's a rarity, not the norm.

So again ... what other torque spec source is better than a manufacture's official service manual.

The "straw" in this discussion is all the tangents shooting off and talking about how nobody should trust anybody's torque spec.


Have a great evening, will have to pick this up tomorrow

 

[Astro14]

Why pick it up?

The OP asked for practical information: where to check torque specs.

You've turned this whole thread into an exercise in pedantry.

You have yet to actually answer the question that was asked, and instead lectured him on an esoteric fine point that hasn't answered the question.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by TheLawnRanger
Is there a reliable website to find torque specs? I have Haynes service manuals but like to double check.


I know of no online data base that covers more than a specific model or two of some makes, google is your best bet for what you are specifically looking for. The Manual you have should be fairly accurate they use the OE data.

 

[buddylpal]

There should be an IQ test prior to getting a user login for this site. ABN_CBT__ENGR are you some sort of super advanced spam bot?

 

[philipp10]

ABN_CBT_ENGR is being obruse and took this out of context into his world of critical fasteners for custom machinery. The original OP was asking for torque setting for I assume, an automobile. Look, under torquing an alternator bracket is more than likely, not going to endanger someones life. So take what Mr. ENGR said with a grain of salt and go back to your factory service manual. The car companies ARE basing these torques on real world testing and no, they are not going to spend the time to show you, Mr. Engr, the data they based it upon. I think 120 years of building cars should be enough to trust.

And yes, there are situations where the torque setting should be modified. Rust, or the opposite, a lubricated fastener would be that case. Then perhaps the scribe method would be more accurate. (Could ABN_CBT_ENGR and engineer_20 be one of the same?)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by philipp10
I think 120 years of building cars should be enough to trust.


Exactly ... anyone who doesn't believe that is just being obtuse.

Originally Posted by philipp10
And yes, there are situations where the torque setting should be modified. Rust, or the opposite, a lubricated fastener would be that case.


Every factory service manual I've seen stipulates that the torque values are for clean dry threads, or if the torque called out is for lubricated threads then that will also be stipulated. So if threads are rusty or have lube on them when they shouldn't, then the threads should be cleaned up instead of trying to figure out what the new torque value should be. Just follow the service manual ... what other source is better.

There are also other special torque procedure call outs for certain fasteners likes some head bolts, etc. Those prerequisites are part of the torquing process and are typically called out in service manuals.