Taurus 327

[Astro14]

I’ll agree that .45 GAP was a dead end. Never caught on. Only one manufacturer built a gun chambered in it. I wouldn’t buy one. .460 Rowland, for example, and the others you mentioned really are are hand loader niche cartridges. Made for niche requirements, so they have niche appeal.

However…

.38 Super was designed in the early 1920s to be able to penetrate car bodies when ATF and FBI agents found themselves in shootouts with moonshiners. .45 ACP was too slow, and didn’t have good performance through barriers. Colt chambered .38 Super in the 1911, the standard sidearm, and the higher velocity, and higher capacity were big advantages. It was basically .38 ACP loaded to higher pressures - an easy change to make to the guns of the time.

Fast forward a hundred years: .38 Super is popular outside the US, which is why ammo is plentiful and gun options exist. Mostly 1911 platforms. Many Central and South American countries prohibit ownership of military calibers by civilians. So, they can’t own 9mm, or .45 ACP. But they can own .38 Super.

.38 Super also fits into the major power category in some pistol competitions. So, get your race gun in .38 Super, hold more rounds than .45 and go compete. I just bought a case of .38 Super for $400 at a local gun store. No more than current prices for 9mm. Not expensive. Not rare. And I’ll go bang away with my Colt Competition 1911 sometime soon.

I watched .40 S&W become all the rage, the cool cartridge, everyone had to have one, but its popularity has really faded. That said, I still have a couple of .40s. I like my H&K USP Compact. Had it for decades. Uber reliable. Good performer. But while there used to be an advantage of a larger, heavier bullet over a smaller lighter one, ammo has changed, and now the cartridge itself isn’t an improvement over modern 9mm ammo. So, why pay the extra money for ammo, and put up with the extra recoil, and lower capacity, if you’re not getting a performance advantage?

If you want a 10mm (which has ballistic advantages over a lot of others, and is commonly available) then get a 10mm. The .40 is a 10mm “lite” and while you can fit more rounds in a given frame, it doesn’t have nearly the performance of a 10mm and has fallen out of popularity while the 10mm has really gained in popularity.

The 10mm has some real performance advantages over other auto pistol cartridges. Flatter shooting, 50% more muzzle energy, and more rounds in a given frame than a .45, it is a good choice for some shooters in some situations. Very popular in Alaska where a 220g hard cast 10mm has credible performance on large game. 15+1 in a Glock 20 is a great choice. It’s the choice of the Danish Sirius patrol in Greenland (polar bear threat).

Folks have realized that, and it’s gone from abandoned by the FBI, and unloved, to being quite popular. Several hundred 10mm pistols for sale on Gunbroker this morning. The price of a clean S&W 1006 has tripled in recent years.

That’s popular.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I’ll agree that .45 GAP was a dead end. Never caught on. Only one manufacturer built a gun chambered in it. I wouldn’t buy one. .460 Rowland, for example, and the others you mentioned really are are hand loader niche cartridges. Made for niche requirements, so they have niche appeal.

However…

.38 Super was designed in the early 1920s to be able to penetrate car bodies when ATF and FBI agents found themselves in shootouts with moonshiners. .45 ACP was too slow, and didn’t have good performance through barriers. Colt chambered .38 Super in the 1911, the standard sidearm, and the higher velocity, and higher capacity were big advantages. It was basically .38 ACP loaded to higher pressures - an easy change to make to the guns of the time.

Fast forward a hundred years: .38 Super is popular outside the US, which is why ammo is plentiful and gun options exist. Mostly 1911 platforms. Many Central and South American countries prohibit ownership of military calibers by civilians. So, they can’t own 9mm, or .45 ACP. But they can own .38 Super.

.38 Super also fits into the major power category in some pistol competitions. So, get your race gun in .38 Super, hold more rounds than .45 and go compete. I just bought a case of .38 Super for $400 at a local gun store. No more than current prices for 9mm. Not expensive. Not rare. And I’ll go bang away with my Colt Competition 1911 sometime soon.

I watched .40 S&W become all the rage, the cool cartridge, everyone had to have one, but its popularity has really faded. That said, I still have a couple of .40s. I like my H&K USP Compact. Had it for decades. Uber reliable. Good performer. But while there used to be an advantage of a larger, heavier bullet over a smaller lighter one, ammo has changed, and now the cartridge itself isn’t an improvement over modern 9mm ammo. So, why pay the extra money for ammo, and put up with the extra recoil, and lower capacity, if you’re not getting a performance advantage?

If you want a 10mm (which has ballistic advantages over a lot of others, and is commonly available) then get a 10mm. The .40 is a 10mm “lite” and while you can fit more rounds in a given frame, it doesn’t have nearly the performance of a 10mm and has fallen out of popularity while the 10mm has really gained in popularity.

The 10mm has some real performance advantages over other auto pistol cartridges. Flatter shooting, 50% more muzzle energy, and more rounds in a given frame than a .45, it is a good choice for some shooters in some situations. Very popular in Alaska where a 220g hard cast 10mm has credible performance on large game. 15+1 in a Glock 20 is a great choice. It’s the choice of the Danish Sirius patrol in Greenland (polar bear threat).

Folks have realized that, and it’s gone from abandoned by the FBI, and unloved, to being quite popular. Several hundred 10mm pistols for sale on Gunbroker this morning. The price of a clean S&W 1006 has tripled in recent years.

That’s popular.

You hit on a lot of things and cartridges I was wondering about.

And I've fired a .38 Special. Colt Agent revolver. Snub-nose. Ooo-wee! Plus. Great stopping power..

 

[supton]

And I've fired a .38 Special. Colt Agent revolver. Snub-nose. Ooo-wee! Plus. Great stopping power..

"Great"? I'm a fan of 38spl but I'm not sure it has been thought of as "great", especially not out of a snub, for many years now. More like, about the lower limit for acceptability, depending on if one is ok with 380 or if one thinks it's too weak.

Don't confuse recoil with power, snubs tend to be light and the short barrel makes it loud and more prone to torquing in your hand. In the end the round gives up quite a bit in the short barrel, all the bark with none of the bite.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

"Great"? I'm a fan of 38spl but I'm not sure it has been thought of as "great", especially not out of a snub, for many years now. More like, about the lower limit for acceptability, depending on if one is ok with 380 or if one thinks it's too weak.

Don't confuse recoil with power, snubs tend to be light and the short barrel makes it loud and more prone to torquing in your hand. In the end the round gives up quite a bit in the short barrel, all the bark with none of the bite.

Beats the **** out of a 9mm!

I would agree with you a snub-nose revolver may not be a primary PDW.. but, if it is a "back-up gun" like used in your stereotypical ankle-holstered piece like in movies.. maybe how it got the name the Agent lol..

Coming from 9mm, I would call it "great" though. Revolver vs semi-auto as well.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Beats the **** out of a 9mm!

I would agree with you a snub-nose revolver may not be a primary PDW.. but, if it is a "back-up gun" like used in your stereotypical ankle-holstered piece like in movies.. maybe how it got the name the Agent lol..

Coming from 9mm, I would call it "great" though. Revolver vs semi-auto as well.

9 mm is ballistically better than 38 Spl. And .357 Mag smokes them both.

Price and Performance: Why 9mm Outshines .38 Special for Shooters

In a nutshell, both cartridges work similarly: they can both be considered older designs, they were both developed primarily for use in handguns, they use practically the same diameter bullets which punch holes that are pretty much the same size, and they’re both popular and available all over...

nationalinterest.org

9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

9 mm is ballistically better than 38 Spl. And .357 Mag smokes them both.

Price and Performance: Why 9mm Outshines .38 Special for Shooters

In a nutshell, both cartridges work similarly: they can both be considered older designs, they were both developed primarily for use in handguns, they use practically the same diameter bullets which punch holes that are pretty much the same size, and they’re both popular and available all over...

nationalinterest.org

9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

And all these years, I thought the massive size difference in 38 Special cartridges vs 9x19 was to be said of stopping power.

If we are talking shot placement and controllablility of the firearm for shot placement, I can see the case.

.357 Magnum is a small, fast round. Father liked that in a K-frame S&W. Again, revolver, though I have seen semi-auto.. though, if I recall, 38 Special and 357 Magnum are "similar" always thought one could be shot out of the other, though maybe not big to small.

S&W Model 19

 

[ZeeOSix]

And all these years, I thought the massive size difference in 38 Special cartridges vs 9x19 was to be said of stopping power.

If we are talking shot placement and controllablility of the firearm for shot placement, I can see the case.

.357 Magnum is a small, fast round. Father liked that in a K-frame S&W. Again, revolver, though I have seen semi-auto.. though, if I recall, 38 Special and 357 Magnum are "similar" always thought one could be shot out of the other, though maybe not big to small.

Can only use either 38 Spl and 357 Mag in a gun made for 357 Mag. But can't shoot 357 Mag in a gun only made for 38 Spl. See post #14 where I say you have 4 levels of ammo power to choose from if you have a 357 Mag revolver.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Has there been a round made up/invented in the last fifty years that just disappeared like this? Various 32’s and 41mag comes to mind, but those are much older and date back to people bought much less ammo. 45 GAP maybe? (don’t know about rifle round though).

Plenty. Even before this ammo craze it would have been a challenge to find/buy .45 GAP or the various rifle WSM and WSSM calibers, or .32 ACP, .25 ACP, and some others.

I was strongly inclined to buy a clearanced out deeply discounted .45 GAP Glock about 2 years ago until I tried to find ammo for it. That threw a bucket of cold water on that purchase, considering ammo represents the majority of the cost of a gun. Same is true with the other calibers mentioned, when each trigger pull is $4 or something stupid.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Since we are talking about a slew of calibers here, including some that have lost favor (? I am not an expert, rather, want to ask questions and learn,) how about .41 Magnum.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

9 mm is ballistically better than 38 Spl. And .357 Mag smokes them both.

Price and Performance: Why 9mm Outshines .38 Special for Shooters

In a nutshell, both cartridges work similarly: they can both be considered older designs, they were both developed primarily for use in handguns, they use practically the same diameter bullets which punch holes that are pretty much the same size, and they’re both popular and available all over...

nationalinterest.org

9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

That's too much of a vague statements. Too much depends on the loads, bullet weight, bullet design, barrel length, and so forth.

And, as I stated before, shot placement is king so much of this is academic. A .22LR to the head is more effective than a .44 mag to the finger. So while people overly fixate on the nonsense idea of "stopping power," accuracy is king by a big margin. You also have to factor weapon reliability. Both of these go to USER ABILITY which is directly related to training. Training is generally fixed to ammunition costs (less expensive ammo means more training time). (This does not factor rifle calibers, range, etc.)

It's an ecosystem, and claiming one bullet is "ballistically superior" ignores the far more important aspects, which I summarized.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Since we are talking about a slew of calibers here, including some that have lost favor (? I am not an expert, rather, want to ask questions and learn,) how about .41 Magnum.

Esoteric, difficult to find any gun that shoots it or ammo to shoot out of it. Not impossible, but difficult. And generally speaking "difficult = expensive."

 

[supton]

32 ACP, .25 ACP

Except those are over 100 years old...

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Except those are over 100 years old...

And that matters how? If you cannot find it, you cannot find it.

A Ford Model T is also a century old. Can I go buy one reasonably easily or maintain it easily or use it easily? Probably not.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Except those are over 100 years old...

32 ACP, .25 ACP

Age aside, I do remember, your pocket calibers are going to be: .22, .25, .32, .35, .380 which I believe is .380ACP.

Better to get a Compact 9mm than a .380......

Said of a .25, it beats throwing rocks.

Were not the .25, .32, .35 recently discontinued or is that not the case. ?

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Age aside, I do remember, your pocket calibers are going to be: .22, .25, .32, .35, .380 which I believe is .380ACP.

Better to get a Compact 9mm than a .380......

Said of a .25, it beats throwing rocks.

Were not the .25, .32, .35 recently discontinued or is that not the case. ?

There's probably companies that make .25, .32, etc. but, again, few if any gun makers make guns that shoot them, and the esoteric calibers are difficult to find and hence generally more expensive. There's also less R&D development to make them "more effective" (take that for whatever it's worth), which common calibers like 9x19 have benefited greatly from (penetration, expansion, etc.).

All of this makes it more logical and economical to just pick a mainstream caliber that is mass produced, heavily benefits from R&D, more economical as a result of economies of scale, more platforms to shoot it from, more market support, and so forth.

The .380 has made a surprising resurgence for pocket semi-autos. It fell out of favor for decades but it has regained popularity in recent years.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

There's probably companies that make .25, .32, etc. but, again, few if any gun makers make guns that shoot them, and the esoteric calibers are difficult to find and hence generally more expensive. There's also less R&D development to make them "more effective" (take that for whatever it's worth), which common calibers like 9x19 have benefited greatly from (penetration, expansion, etc.).

All of this makes it more logical and economical to just pick a mainstream caliber that is mass produced, heavily benefits from R&D, more economical as a result of economies of scale, more platforms to shoot it from, more market support, and so forth.

The .380 has made a surprising resurgence for pocket semi-autos. It fell out of favor for decades but it has regained popularity in recent years.

I don't claim to know everything but I wonder if rap music is partially responsible for the Resurgence of 380.

It glorified .40S&W pretty well about 15 years ago..

 

[Astro14]

.41 Magnum was designed and championed by Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan back in the early 1960s. It's an actual .410 inches, and gives up little, just a little, to the .44 Magnum, which measures .429 inches. .44 Magnum, like .357, is just a lengthened existing cartridge, in this case, .44 special, while .41 was "built from scratch".

It's a powerful round. In a 4" N-frame S&W, it has a hefty recoil. Hefty recoil. My 6'5" kid brother can palm a basketball, his hands are so big. He doesn't like shooting his .41 magnum and has a hard time getting hits with it. Most shooters cannot handle it, and a 4" N-frame isn't exactly concealed carry size or weight.

It made a lot more sense as a round when bullets were simple, and mass, frontal area, and velocity determined performance. The .41 magnum has all of those properties in generous quantity. But bullet performance has improved considerably. Even though Mr. Keith, and a few others, like Bill Jordan (author of "No Second Place Winner", an outstanding read, by the way) could handle the .41, most cops today could not, and follow up shots would be a problem.

The FBI famously abandoned the 10mm when their agents were unable to qualify with the big S&W 1076 in 10mm. Even full power 10mm loads are well short of the .41 when it's loaded to full power, and that 10mm was too much for many agents. So, the FBI went back to 9mm.

Round performance is one thing.

Performance of the system consisting of shooter, ammo, and weapon is quite another. Performance of that system is all that really matters, and modern 9mm defensive ammo tends to result in much better system (shooter, ammo, gun) performance in the real world and on ranges.

A S&W model 57 (N-Frame) or 58 (also N-frame, but fewer "features", intended to be an affordable option for police and other law enforcement) is a cool gun. Really cool.

But unless you're gonna' carry for moose/bear protection, not particularly practical. If the shooter carrying that big gun can't get a round on target, or can't get a second shot off in a reasonable amount of time, then all that power is pointless.

 

[bunnspecial]

I love the 327 Magnum.

Years ago, I had an SP101 chambered in it and stupidly sold it.

When I heard a few years back that Ruger was making a Single 7 chambered in it, I called every gun store in town and fortunately one came through. I still have that one and never intend to sell it.

This is a great little cartridge-as much kinetic energy as a 357 Magnum but softer shooting and an extra round in a given sized gun.

The favorable ballistics and velocity also make for a fairly flat shooting handgun round, so it is a good distance round if you're into that. My Single 7 isn't a great carry gun, but the longer barrel makes it a good target gun.

It's not a terrible cartridge to reload. I use Hornady jacketed hollowpoints and generally Winchester 296. If you're going to shoot it out of a short barrel gun, you might benefit from a faster powder, but I found Win 296 great in my 5 3/4" Single 7.

Oh, by the way, it's loud-probably one of the loudest handguns I've ever shot. My SP101 was a lot worse than what I have now.

Call me weird, though. The only 1911 I have is in 38 Super...

 

[CharlesInCharge]

@Astro14 I generally agree with your assessment on post #21.

I'll add that in my experience, the 10mm has an extremely narrow niche level of usefulness and almost none outside of areas where "big game" is a threat. It's inherent performance ability is on par with large revolver calibers (.357, 44 mag, etc.). There is the distinct weight/capacity advantage and reliability is a wash.

Having actually owned and fired a Glock 20 in 10mm, they are not enjoyable to shoot and accuracy really suffers when shooting it IME. I did not like it, at all, nor the heavy pricetag of the ammo.

For civilian carry it's overkill. I know nobody who carries a 10mm outside of back country, and few that pick it over a trusted revolver such as a SW 629 or Ruger Redhawk .44 or a trusty .357 for back country.

The 10mm remains esoteric and I'd venture 90% of users reload for it, and they are almost exclusively back country sidearms.

ETA: My backwoods handgun is either a .357 magnum (Ruger GP100) or a .44 magnum (SW 629), for large game threats.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

.41 Magnum was designed and championed by Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan back in the early 1960s. It's an actual .410 inches, and gives up little, just a little, to the .44 Magnum, which measures .429 inches. .44 Magnum, like .357, is just a lengthened existing cartridge, in this case, .44 special, while .41 was "built from scratch".

It's a powerful round. In a 4" N-frame S&W, it has a hefty recoil. Hefty recoil. My 6'5" kid brother can palm a basketball, his hands are so big. He doesn't like shooting his .41 magnum and has a hard time getting hits with it. Most shooters cannot handle it, and a 4" N-frame isn't exactly concealed carry size or weight.

It made a lot more sense as a round when bullets were simple, and mass, frontal area, and velocity determined performance. The .41 magnum has all of those properties in generous quantity. But bullet performance has improved considerably. Even though Mr. Keith, and a few others, like Bill Jordan (author of "No Second Place Winner", an outstanding read, by the way) could handle the .41, most cops today could not, and follow up shots would be a problem.

The FBI famously abandoned the 10mm when their agents were unable to qualify with the big S&W 1076 in 10mm. Even full power 10mm loads are well short of the .41 when it's loaded to full power, and that 10mm was too much for many agents. So, the FBI went back to 9mm.

Round performance is one thing.

Performance of the system consisting of shooter, ammo, and weapon is quite another. Performance of that system is all that really matters, and modern 9mm defensive ammo tends to result in much better system (shooter, ammo, gun) performance in the real world and on ranges.

A S&W model 57 (N-Frame) or 58 (also N-frame, but fewer "features", intended to be an affordable option for police and other law enforcement) is a cool gun. Really cool.

But unless you're gonna' carry for moose/bear protection, not particularly practical. If the shooter carrying that big gun can't get a round on target, or can't get a second shot off in a reasonable amount of time, then all that power is pointless.

Well written, accurate, and I 100% agree. It reinforces my point about ballistics. A well placed smaller caliber - generally speaking - will do a lot more than any miss any day (and you're liable for missed shots too).

This is the summary why larger calibers have fallen aside in general popularity - costs, capacity and inability to qualify or hit the target. And with R&D developing better performing 9x19 ammunition (harder hitting, deeper penetrating, better reliable expansion), the resurgence of the 9mm for law enforcement and civilians (who are moving mostly to 9mm and .380). Generally speaking quality 9mm will do anything larger calibers could traditionally do (10mm, .41 mag, .44 mag, .357 mag, .40 caliber, .45acp, and so forth) to humans or dogs but do it easier and less expensively, with greater capacity, easier main stream qualifications, etc.

Note my primary carry guns are chambered in .40 caliber and 9x19mm, because I am extremely proficient with them, but I have currently or have had guns in almost every caliber discussed in this thread.