Synthetic cold flow test

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: FermeLaPorte
New to me test. What the frick with Royal Purple. You would think it would be better


Here is a test at -40C. Royal purple did not do well against Mobil 1. There was also a bias against Walmart because the guy used a Supertech conventional 5-30 against the synthetics but labeled it "Walmart".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_vxdO_9nc

 

[Eddie]

If you watch the test as it progressing you will see the differences. Therefor it made no difference during the test if there were slight differences in the initial fill volume. Gads, all the negative chatter for those of you who don't even offer to set up a test and demonstrate how an "expert" really does it. Ed

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: LEADED
Your Oil pump will not no the DIFFERANCE ,Day or night . WOW I wonder if FOMULATORS loose any sleep over test like this . Should throw away Millions of $ Test Equipment in junk yards .

The oil pump and engine would know a difference if one oil caused the pump to hit pressure relief and a diffetent oil didn't during a cold start. Whenever the oil pump hits pressure relief it cuts back the volume of oil going through the engine.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
If you watch the test as it progressing you will see the differences. Therefor it made no difference during the test if there were slight differences in the initial fill volume. Gads, all the negative chatter for those of you who don't even offer to set up a test and demonstrate how an "expert" really does it. Ed

So how does this test tell me something I don't already know? Do I need to know how it flows out of that funnel to tell me which oil I should buy instead of another one?

It tells me something I don't already know when buying an oil appropriate for my expected starting conditions? If I need an oil for my BMW which lives in northern Wisconsin during the winter, I should buy an oil that does well in this test rather than just blindly purchasing Castrol 0W-40 which meets the 0W cold cranking specification?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Here is a test at -40C. Royal purple did not do well against Mobil 1. There was also a bias against Walmart because the guy used a Supertech conventional 5-30 against the synthetics but labeled it "Walmart".

If your expected starting temperature is -40C, shouldn't you be using a 0W oil instead of a 5W?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

I do have to admit that the -40C glug test did make me search around to find the table of PQIA 5W30 synth data that then led me to return a jug of 5W30 RP and get some M1 instead. The video itself is a bit silly, but it did help start me down the path to extreme oil OCD...wait, that's probably not a good thing...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Always a good video to show what's going on with super cold starts.

Part 1

 

[ZeeOSix]

Part 2

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Always a good video to show what's going on with super cold starts.

Part 1



I have posted this video before and got roundly chastised for it, but vividly shows the far superior extreme cold flow difference between a 0-30 synthetic compared to a 30 and 40wt dino.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: tig1

I have posted this video before and got roundly chastised for it, but vividly shows the far superior extreme cold flow difference between a 0-30 synthetic compared to a 30 and 40wt dino.


Actually, I drew your attention to it. Plus found the papers on it, posting them in tech articles somewhere.

Where you get chastised every time is for claiming that those videos, showing only one grade appropriate for the test temperature, apply to starting a car at "normal" temperatures.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: tig1
I have posted this video before and got roundly chastised for it, but vividly shows the far superior extreme cold flow difference between a 0-30 synthetic compared to a 30 and 40wt dino.

When it's in the correct context, as your phrasing of "extreme cold flow difference" is, then it's correct. A 0w-30 will pump in those conditions, where poorer cold weather grades will not.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Here is a test at -40C. Royal purple did not do well against Mobil 1. There was also a bias against Walmart because the guy used a Supertech conventional 5-30 against the synthetics but labeled it "Walmart".

If your expected starting temperature is -40C, shouldn't you be using a 0W oil instead of a 5W?


Not a problem with 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic. Big problem for 5w30 conventional.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: 285south
Dude bought Amsoil and Royal Purple but not Red Line to test as well

edit - also the levels were not all equal, M1 EP had more in it than others, Castrol EP had the less. Results not valid


Chip in and crowd fund him.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: kschachn
If your expected starting temperature is -40C, shouldn't you be using a 0W oil instead of a 5W?


Not a problem with 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic. Big problem for 5w30 conventional.


MRV is the ability to fill the pickup tube as the pump moves the oil into the galleries...it's the same spec for 5W anything, synthetic OR conventional.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: kschachn
If your expected starting temperature is -40C, shouldn't you be using a 0W oil instead of a 5W?


Not a problem with 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic. Big problem for 5w30 conventional.


MRV is the ability to fill the pickup tube as the pump moves the oil into the galleries...it's the same spec for 5W anything, synthetic OR conventional.


Did you watch the video on page 3 that included the Super Tech conventional 5w30 at -40? My posting, fifth from the bottom.

 

[Shannow]

The "-40 glug glug" test hasn't been either standardised by the ASTM (I think the staggered starts and lack of temperature control might have to be corrected before then), nor adopted by the API.

The closest USED to be the pour point, which was found to correlate poorly with engines startability or the ability of oil to flow to the pickup...the MRV viscosity has been determined to best represent that aspect.

If any of the oils that were tested in that video, that were RATED at -35 met the MRV at -40, then they HAVE TO BE lavbelled a 0W40.

So the fact remains...need a -40 Start, use a 0W.
ALL the 5Ws meet the MRV spec at -35, if they met it at -40, they would be 0W.

The -40 GLug test is no standardised.

BUT...if you have faith in the -40 Glug test, to prove which 5W30 you should run at -40, here's a -30 Glug test.



Note, I am not claiming anything with this video, as clearly the techniques used are not up to sort of rigour that would qualify as an ASTM standard.

 

[Snagglefoot]

All good, thanks, but how about this: Once you are below the test temp for the MRV, things get interesting. From the other video, the Mobil 1 Synthetic 5-30 pours just fine at -40, but the 5-30 conventional is still stuck in the bottle. Both are 5w30 and if at the proper MRV test temp they should have been identical, as you said. Maybe we need to see what would have happened at -35 C.

 

[Shannow]

No problems, the problem is that at extreme cold...and that has to be qualified as extreme cold for the actual oil, not just -30C, -35C, -40C, it can, and HAS happened at much higher (there was a Toyota factory fill versus first service fill incompatibility issue that caused it to happen above freezing)

At "cold" temperatures for the oil, the MRV/CCS basically double or halve for every 5C down, or up respectively. So all things being equal, there's a range from around 3,000 to 6,000 where they are "in grade" for their "W" grade. It's a fair difference.

But waxes and stuff upset the balance, so when you get below the "W" grade, a couple of degrees can make the oils gel.

But the biggie is that in the Pour Point = "W" grade, they found that it's not just the temperature, but the cooling rate, hold points on the way down, etc. actually affected the rate of wax crystal growth, thus the MRV has specified rates of cooling to get to the ultimate temperature.

I'm not arguing that Supertech dino equals Mobil 1 in the test that you showed.

The standardised test is standardised...specified cooling rates, pleteaux, and final temperature, and both the viscosity and the presence of shear stresses in the cooled oil.

 

[4WD]

Seconds per quart - methods of relative comparison ~ marsh funnels are used for this worldwide …

I could do this with a source of cold for bottles, a garage, and a stop watch … anyone else get that?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The "-40 glug glug" test hasn't been either standardised by the ASTM (I think the staggered starts and lack of temperature control might have to be corrected before then), nor adopted by the API.

The closest USED to be the pour point, which was found to correlate poorly with engines startability or the ability of oil to flow to the pickup...the MRV viscosity has been determined to best represent that aspect.

If any of the oils that were tested in that video, that were RATED at -35 met the MRV at -40, then they HAVE TO BE lavbelled a 0W40.

So the fact remains...need a -40 Start, use a 0W.
ALL the 5Ws meet the MRV spec at -35, if they met it at -40, they would be 0W.

The -40 GLug test is no standardised.

BUT...if you have faith in the -40 Glug test, to prove which 5W30 you should run at -40, here's a -30 Glug test.

Note, I am not claiming anything with this video, as clearly the techniques used are not up to sort of rigour that would qualify as an ASTM standard.


Still fun to watch even though it's a bit of a silly test.
Interesting that they chose M1 5W30 ESP, that is probably the "worst" of the M1 5W30s for CCS performance although I have to admit that I haven't seen results for AP. M1 5W30 and the EP variety were both around 4000 cP at -30C, ESP was about 5000 cP.
I'm actually surprised that the 0W30 looks that gooey at -30C, but clearly this video has little to do with what's happening in an engine at that temperature. I'm sure I had a number of successful -20F-ish starts with 5W30 conventional oils that weren't stellar CCS performers, but I like to look for good synth 5W30 CCS performers for my changes now and might try 0W30 this winter.