Speed Rating debate..and Tire Rack

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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Really? Do cops actually make notes on tire speed ratings at an accident scene, and then look at the door sticker for that trim level of the car?

Cops may not. But if it was a serious accident with massive injuries or fatalities, I could easily imagine an insurance agent or a lawyer going back to the crashed car to verify this info. They'll try to hang onto any little thread they can find in order to try to shift blame onto someone else and get an appropriate settlement. This is the society we live in.
 
I didn't see anyone mention that tire speed ratings are for SUSTAINED speeds. What the legal definition of this is, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently...

I guess ANY tire would be OK for Drag Racing?

I always run snow tires in winter, as has been said, these are usually speed-rated lower (if they have a speed rating at all). Never a tire failure issue.
 
No where is it mentioned on my door panel or in the owner's
manaul of my Elantra that states that H rated tire is required
as the replacement tire!

If I am missing this, please someone here point it out in any
offical Hyundai documentation.
 
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Tire Rack is very careful about putting the appropriate tires on a given vehicle. If they say they have talked to Hyundai and gotten approval, I would trust them, but would ask to get it in writing.

"Trust, but verify."
 
I agree with QuattroPete. In a very serious accident, they will go over the car with a fine tooth comb, both plaintiff and defense team, looking for anything to bolster their side. A plaintiff's attorney will fasten right on to the tires and run a check with the manufacturer and any door jamb info. He will check the brakes, the lighting, etc. All this will come up in court. Now fortunately, this is not going to happen in all probability in a fender bender and most of us don't have these serious accidents...but still, do you want to run a risk for a few bucks?

All of which raises a point about having a liability cap for $1,000,000 over your house and car. Only costs a little over $100/year but WELL WORTH IT!
 
Just called Tire Rack again...the gentleman again confirmed AGAIN
that "Hyundai states the minimum for the Elantra is S Rated."
 
Originally Posted By: flinter
Just called Tire Rack again...the gentleman again confirmed AGAIN
that "Hyundai states the minimum for the Elantra is S Rated."

Then you're set.
 
The refusal to install any tire with a speed rating less than what was supplied OEM at many tire dealers is solely one driven by liability reasons. For that, you can thank the lawyers and insurance companies.

But aside from the actual top rated speed of a tire, there is some basis on where this comes from. Generally speaking, S rated tires will more or less have the same "feel" in terms of sidewall rigidity as the next S rated tire. Same goes for H. Or any other speed rating that you can pick. Generally, the lower speed rated the tire, the squirmier and squishier it will feel. Add to that that speed ratings of H and higher require a fundamentally different construction technique. What can happen is that in an emergency situation, a driver who is used to the way the car reacted on the H rated OEM tires, but is now driving on replacement S rated tires may get an entirely unexpected response from the car, which could lead to an accident.

So does this mean never replace with a lower speed rating? Well, maybe or maybe not. From the insurance and lawyer perspective, the answer is clearly no. From a realistic and practical perspective, the answer is not so clear.

I have a perfect example of a car from my past: a 2002 Mazda Protege. It was sold in 3 trim levels, with even more sub-variations within the trim levels. Everything mechanical was identical, save for the base engine. I am not talking about any of the performance models - only the mainstream ones. Neither engine could realistically get that car to go much faster than about 105 mph on a good day, with a tail wind downhill. Tire options spanned three sizes: 14", 15" and 16". The 14" tires were some S rated Firestones. The 15" were V rated Bridgestones, and 16" also V rated (Dunlops I believe).

Let's say Grandma has a top of the line that just happens to come with the 16". (And let's leave out the fact right now that it is likely impossible to find a low speed rated tire in low profile for theory's sake). Grandma drives like, well, a grandma. And she now needs new tires. Given the way she drives, and the fact that the car actually left the factory in some iterations with S rated tires, there is no reason why she couldn't drop down, and she would not see a compromise for her safety. But let's say 17 year old Billy also has the same car. He drives like your stereotype of a teenaged boy, and he now needs new tires. Drop to an S in this case? I would say no, because he has pushed this car to it's limits on V rated tires, and he will leave the tire shop lot on S trying to do the same thing. There is no way the S rated will have anywhere near the performance characteristics of the V rated tire.

The rest of us likely fall somewhere in between. Add another layer to that now: the lowest speed rating you are likely to find in low profile tires are H. If the majority of us owned that car, the H would likely suffice.

Fast foward to 2011, and I bet that the majority of cars that back in 2002 would have had a trim level leave the factory with S or T tires, would now have equivalent cars leaving with no less than H for the North American market. Perhaps the suspensions were "tuned" for these new tires. But really, how likely does your Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Malibu or Toyota Camry have the same degree of suspension tuning as a Corvette or any other high performance vehicle? I suspect it is more a marketing gimmick than anything. Realistically, if the type of use of the car is such (most likely the grandmas), then going to as low as S probably works, though now I wouldn't chance it for the majority of us, save going down to an H rated from something riduculously higher rated, which I am certain the majority of cars will never benefit from the full potential. (BTW, in some markets outside North America, the exact same cars would be sold with S rated tires, and depending on the type of car, it's unlikely the manufacturer spent money to engineer two different suspensions).

Then there's winter, a whole different ball game. I am hearing may shops are now applying the same liability rules for winter tires, but the theory for dropping speed rating here is different, and multi-part: (supposedly) lower speeds driven in winter, meaning also less severe of an emergency manoever would be needed. Also a trade off of benefits: the increased ice and snow traction of a lower speed rated tire far exceed the benefit of the handling characteristics of a higher speed rated winter tire for most applications.

Of course common sense could now all be moot anyway, if the lawyers have all lead us into a world where tire shops fear lawsuits.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick R
I would just defer to capriracer. He's an actual EXPERT, not an armchair enthusiast.


+1
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Originally Posted By: flinter
No where is it mentioned on my door panel or in the owner's
manaul of my Elantra that states that H rated tire is required
as the replacement tire!

If I am missing this, please someone here point it out in any
offical Hyundai documentation.


Look at the vehicle tire placard. It will say something like:

P215/70R15 92S - The "S" is the speed rating.

This is what you would call a "Specification" - and I think it is obvious that deviating from the spec carries with it some legal liability.

A parallel is the specification for the oil. If you want an interesting read, find some threads where they discuss that!
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Cops may not. But if it was a serious accident with massive injuries or fatalities, I could easily imagine an insurance agent or a lawyer going back to the crashed car to verify this info. They'll try to hang onto any little thread they can find in order to try to shift blame onto someone else and get an appropriate settlement. This is the society we live in.


Trust me. If there's a fatality, there will be lawyers all over it. There is serious money to be made!
 
CapriRacer,

Just check 2 mins ago, ABSOLUTELY NO mention of speed rating
with H anywhere on tire place card!

Just gives the tire size and recommended PSI, front and rear.

Also, please provide me with offical Hyundai documentation
where its clearly states that H rated tires are required for
the 2005 Elantra GLS sedan.
 
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Higher sped rated tires are sturdier.
Often with less flex in the sidewalls, as well.
It's up to your projected driving. Not just how fast, but how hard you corner and brake.
 
Originally Posted By: Carbuff
I didn't see anyone mention that tire speed ratings are for SUSTAINED speeds. What the legal definition of this is, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently...

I guess ANY tire would be OK for Drag Racing?........


In order to get a certain speed rating, the tire has to pass a test. Many people interpret this to mean "sustained" but that is an interpretation. Here's a link to my web page and I discuss the test a little bit into the page:

http://www.barrystiretech.com/speedratings.html

So would ANY tire be OK for drag racing? I would think not.
 
It's interesting that no one asked the very simple question of what are the tire specifications for a 2005 Hyundai Elantra? Everyone ASSUMED that since the current tires are "H" rated that this must be what's specified by Hyundai. In fact, you are correct, Flinter, that you can use S, T or H (or higher if you like) rated tires for a 2005 Hyundai Elantra. The owner's manual only discusses the SIZE of the tire and there is discussion n the various tire types but nothing specific on speed rating. here's a link to an online manual: http://www.manualowl.com/am/Hyundai/2005-Elantra/Manual/710

Buy the "T" rated tires and be happy.
 
Thanks dtownfb,

But I am VERY familiar with my Elantra manual, upside down,
inside out and front to back. I have gone over it with a
fine tooth comb.

I probably will puchase the Conti T RATED tires, but I feel
I need to set the record straight about this matter, once and
for all.

And again, unless someone on this forum can step forward
and provide us all with written Hyundai documentation
that clearly states, you ARE REQUIRED to ONLY replacement
with H rated tire, than the discussion here about
liability and legal action is null and void.
 
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Originally Posted By: flinter
CapriRacer,

Just check 2 mins ago, ABSOLUTELY NO mention of speed rating
with H anywhere on tire place card!

Just gives the tire size and recommended PSI, front and rear.

Also, please provide me with offical Hyundai documentation
where its clearly states that H rated tires are required for
the 2005 Elantra GLS sedan.


A couple of thoughts:

I did a quick google search for Hyundai tire placards and found some photos where the placard doesn't have the load index and speed rating - so it is entirely possible that your vehicle might not have it.

The second part has to do with interpretation of what people are saying. I don't think anyone is saying that you are obligated by law to put H rated tires on your vehicle. Nor is anyone saying Hyundai is stating that you are REQUIRED to put on H rated tires.

What is being said is that there are documents that show what originally came on your vehicle - and that there are some good reasons you might want to stick with that - and that there are good reasons why tire shops might not want to put on tires with a lower speed rating. Plus there is a lot of other mis-information concerning this issue.

If you want to put on T speed rated tires - do it! But please don't try to convince us with information that is faulty.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Really? Do cops actually make notes on tire speed ratings at an accident scene, and then look at the door sticker for that trim level of the car?

Cops may not. But if it was a serious accident with massive injuries or fatalities, I could easily imagine an insurance agent or a lawyer going back to the crashed car to verify this info. They'll try to hang onto any little thread they can find in order to try to shift blame onto someone else and get an appropriate settlement. This is the society we live in.

I can see an ambitious lawyer trying this but unless the accident was a result of a highspeed blowout, you could get Capriracer as an expert witness to say that he could not say with any certainty, that if the car had the same model of tire in a higher speed rating that there would have been any significant difference in the accident.

Heck, if the car was totally out of control, an expert tire witness might say a higher speed rated tire would've been worse due the stiffer sidewalls which makes the tire have a sharper transition with less warning, from gripping at smaller slip angles to sliding at huge slip angles...

I don't hear of people getting sued for putting "better" tires on their cars but they aren't in original equipment either... What about Monroe quick struts? They aren't OEM or have springs matched to the trim level of a car. Does Monroe get sued when people spin out into the ditch?

I don't know the name for the legal principal, but maybe it is just basically the tires and shocks are "normal/common" replacement items, and that they are not significant factors in accidents caused by the driver/s involved.
 
CapriRacer,

I never said "obligated by the law". However, folks here seem
to be suggesting that if you replace with a lower speed rating,
that somehow your life is in danger and its some sort of a liabiltiy issue. Thats just downright silly.

For myself, a conversative driver who NEVER drives aggressively,
this Conti T Rated model will actually be more comfortable and
smoother with better wet traction.

The car that Tire Rack perform their test on with the Continental
ProContact EcoPlus tire was a BMW! Certainly a car with a MUCH
more sport oriented and sophisticated suspension than my little
old Elantra! They loved how this tire T rated tire handled on a BWM
and won 1st place in the shoot out.

Go to the Tire Rack site and watch the video!
 
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