Silverado cold start lifter tick

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla

The royal purple filter is a high flow high efficiency filter, nothing is close except it's clone filter. filter test


It's "clone filter"?

The Royal Purple and AMSOIL filters are essentially identical, both produced by Champion Labs under contract from both oil companies. Neither oil company produces a filter and the AMSOIL EaO filter has been in production, long, LONG before the Royal Purple one. If one of those filters is going to be called a "clone" it is the Royal Purple one.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: burla
The oil with the best cold qualities is redline, check your tech sheets and check out the cold flow oil tests on youtube if you need a visual.

I have no problems with Red Line, but their cold numbers are unremarkable within grade, which is no surprise, because they're not really ILSAC oils. Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 spanks Red Line 5w-30 when it comes to cold cranking values.


I wasn't aware of that? I thought, from what I have seen, that Redline poured pretty good in the cold? Maybe it does, but you're saying PP is a lot better? What about PUP 5W-30, I assume the same thing or better?

My wife's Impala fired up great this morning but I wasn't in it to watch oil pressure as I started it remotely from inside the warmth of the house. It is -26 C here this morning.


Redline 5w-30, being more similar in visc and HTHS to a Euro oil, behaves more in-line with oils like BMW 5w-30 (LL-01) and similar >3.5 HTHS Euro lubes, which typically have higher CCS and MRV numbers (though obviously still within grade) than comparable ILSAC lubes, which are inherently thinner.

Don't be concerned about "pour", your engine doesn't pour anything. The two key parameters are whether the oil pump (MRV) and whether it is thick enough to have an impact on cranking speed (CCS). As long as you are using a lubricant appropriate for the temperature you are experiencing, you'll be fine. A 5w-xx, regardless of who makes it, has to be within the same limits for CCS @ -30C and MRV at -35C.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: burla

The royal purple filter is a high flow high efficiency filter, nothing is close except it's clone filter. filter test


It's "clone filter"?

The Royal Purple and AMSOIL filters are essentially identical, both produced by Champion Labs under contract from both oil companies. Neither oil company produces a filter and the AMSOIL EaO filter has been in production, long, LONG before the Royal Purple one. If one of those filters is going to be called a "clone" it is the Royal Purple one.


What difference that does that make? Two filters are the same, one you don't have to join a club to buy and royal purple did a little better in the test both at filtering and less glue on the media. it is the technology that I embrace as we all should, far superior then paper filters whatever brand you use. less talk, read the filter test if you want to make an informed choice.

I stand by redline qualities on ticking engines, there is nothing better with years of testing, and many scientific reasons why. The formulation was built for metal to metal wearin mind, not gas mileage like literally every other oil. it is too bad the only real clone to redline would be Millers, something we can't get reasonably.

 

[ThankYouma]

Originally Posted By: Lubener
I'd turn up the radio.


I'd change the oil.

 

[MParr]

Maybe there needs to be a dedicated “topic” section to GM V8 engines. The ticking at cold startup is common to the Vortec V8 engines. I’m not familiar with their pushrod V6 engines so, I can’t comment on those. I worked for our County Public Works for 31 years and we had a mixed fleet of pickups; GM, Ford and Dodge. The GMs ticked at startup. It didn’t matter if it was 70F of 10F. Once those GM trucks got north of 100,000 miles, the ticking could show up at any time. All of the gasoline powered trucks got bulk 5W30 conventional oil and NAPA Gold filters and the oil and filters were changed at 5,000 miles. Let’s get ticking.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: burla

The royal purple filter is a high flow high efficiency filter, nothing is close except it's clone filter. filter test


It's "clone filter"?

The Royal Purple and AMSOIL filters are essentially identical, both produced by Champion Labs under contract from both oil companies. Neither oil company produces a filter and the AMSOIL EaO filter has been in production, long, LONG before the Royal Purple one. If one of those filters is going to be called a "clone" it is the Royal Purple one.


You can't beat the "purple"!

 

[irv]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: burla
The oil with the best cold qualities is redline, check your tech sheets and check out the cold flow oil tests on youtube if you need a visual.

I have no problems with Red Line, but their cold numbers are unremarkable within grade, which is no surprise, because they're not really ILSAC oils. Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 spanks Red Line 5w-30 when it comes to cold cranking values.


I wasn't aware of that? I thought, from what I have seen, that Redline poured pretty good in the cold? Maybe it does, but you're saying PP is a lot better? What about PUP 5W-30, I assume the same thing or better?

My wife's Impala fired up great this morning but I wasn't in it to watch oil pressure as I started it remotely from inside the warmth of the house. It is -26 C here this morning.


Redline 5w-30, being more similar in visc and HTHS to a Euro oil, behaves more in-line with oils like BMW 5w-30 (LL-01) and similar >3.5 HTHS Euro lubes, which typically have higher CCS and MRV numbers (though obviously still within grade) than comparable ILSAC lubes, which are inherently thinner.

Don't be concerned about "pour", your engine doesn't pour anything. The two key parameters are whether the oil pump (MRV) and whether it is thick enough to have an impact on cranking speed (CCS). As long as you are using a lubricant appropriate for the temperature you are experiencing, you'll be fine. A 5w-xx, regardless of who makes it, has to be within the same limits for CCS @ -30C and MRV at -35C.


Thanks Overkill. I notice Redline oil is tough to get in my neck of the woods but I can get it. It is pricey however so I'll just stick with my current fave, PP or PUP.
Curious, do you happen to know which is better as far as MRV goes between the 2 oils or is it a moot point?

 

[burla]

If you follow the brand game which unfortunately is the only game played at Bob's anymore, then you get disinformation instead of learning about the formula. Take the Redline out of the sentence and look at formulations and leave brand names out of it, as far as filters as well. I've seen the pao/ester based formula get an 80% success rate at killing ticks in a 30 person control group with hemi tick, yes a small control group with not a ton of scrutiny, but not an insignificant result. In fact a results that has puzzled every dyi weekend mechanic on the board, but that doesn't change the results. Pags are similar to the esters as far as performance, I don't have a chart of the poly's in redline, I wish I did but rest assured you would get similar results as the chart below on PAGS. Which oil formulation "might" help with ticks? Using something engineered to have low hths or fuel economy in mind, built with api standards with low AW/AP additives? Good luck with that, you mise well just replace the lifters, because that dog DONT hunt. I'm not say'n an oil built for the extremes will fix your tick, I'm saying you have a much better chance with that then you do play'n my brand is better group 3's game.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla

What difference that does that make? Two filters are the same, one you don't have to join a club to buy


Because you called one a "clone", when it predates the one you are pimping as the "original" by a significant margin. You can buy AMSOIL products without being a member BTW, not sure where you got that idea?

Originally Posted By: burla
and royal purple did a little better in the test both at filtering and less glue on the media.


The filters are manufactured ENTIRELY by Champion Labs. Royal Purple has literally ZERO involvement in the manufacturing process. They spec a product, in this case a synthetic glass media filter in a purple can with their sticker on it and a silicone ADBV, AMSOIL does the same thing. The same company produces the Mobil 1 filters as well as many others. Both filters have the exact same filtration rating. If one has a bit more glue on it, that's a manufacturing variance.

Quote:
it is the technology that I embrace as we all should, far superior then paper filters whatever brand you use. less talk, read the filter test if you want to make an informed choice.


I've been advocating synthetic glass media filters on here long, LONG before your tenure. The fact that you have some agenda regarding the Royal Purple and AMSOIL filters is what I take issue with, not your stance on synthetic glass media filtration.

Originally Posted By: burla
I stand by redline qualities on ticking engines, there is nothing better with years of testing, and many scientific reasons why. The formulation was built for metal to metal wearin mind, not gas mileage like literally every other oil. it is too bad the only real clone to redline would be Millers, something we can't get reasonably.


Seriously, "Literally every other oil"? Can you substantiate that statement or is that simply more haut hyperbole to entice the gullible?

Redline makes an excellent oil. So do many others. Basically any oil that isn't ILSAC GF-5 "Energy Conserving" rated doesn't have a focus on gas mileage. Any oil that meets Porsche A40 has to pass their rigorous test programme, the same with Mercedes, BMW and others.

AMSOIL and Royal Purple also make boutique products similar to Redline's offerings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
If you follow the brand game which unfortunately is the only game played at Bob's anymore, then you get disinformation instead of learning about the formula. Take the Redline out of the sentence and look at formulations and leave brand names out of it, as far as filters as well. I've seen the pao/ester based formula get an 80% success rate at killing ticks in a 30 person control group with hemi tick, yes a small control group with not a ton of scrutiny, but not an insignificant result. In fact a results that has puzzled every dyi weekend mechanic on the board, but that doesn't change the results. Pags are similar to the esters as far as performance, I don't have a chart of the poly's in redline, I wish I did but rest assured you would get similar results as the chart below on PAGS. Which oil formulation "might" help with ticks? Using something engineered to have low hths or fuel economy in mind, built with api standards with low AW/AP additives? Good luck with that, you mise well just replace the lifters, because that dog DONT hunt. I'm not say'n an oil built for the extremes will fix your tick, I'm saying you have a much better chance with that then you do play'n my brand is better group 3's game.

Is the lifter tick and potential failure mechanism the same between the GM engines being discussed and the MDS lifter failure on the 5.7L HEMI? Have you run a comparable control group of ticking GM engines to see if the same effects are observed?

I understand your advocacy, based on your results as we've discussed on the past, for Redline in the 5.7L HEMI. I'm just curious as to how that applies to this engine unless comparable testing has been done to confirm similar success?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: irv

Thanks Overkill. I notice Redline oil is tough to get in my neck of the woods but I can get it. It is pricey however so I'll just stick with my current fave, PP or PUP.
Curious, do you happen to know which is better as far as MRV goes between the 2 oils or is it a moot point?


It's a moot point assuming you are looking at the same grade in each. You won't see a dramatic difference unless you step it up to a 0w-xx, in which case both CCS and MRV visc will be significantly less than a 5w-xx at the same temperature. However the limits in place are well tested, so that visc variance may be of no consequence.

 

[burla]

You don't me, I have been touting spun microglass from the day I learned about them, I have no brand agenda, I could care less. My term clone just meant the two are identical, get over it overkill.

Whether or not someone tries the pao/ester fluids available to fight tick or not is their choice. Too bad we don't have more options then the cus word Redline, but at least we do have redline as an option built to stick between that ticking condition more then the sparce oil formulations of today. bean counters don't care about quality, they care about bottom line, and esters just cost too much and the benefit in a gas engine is hardly worth it, except for when that engine is in extreme conditions. Then it is "possible" the formula will make it worth the cost and effort to get it. Another interesting side note would be the studies on ionic fluids as a replacement for zddp, because at operating temps they actually lower the coefficient of friction over zddp. yes, a base oil that our performs zddp even at 8%, huh, too bad they didn't take the industry in that direction instead of just lowering zddp and telling us don't worry that stuff really isn't necessary anyway, LOL.

no more, carry on.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
You don't me, I have been touting spun microglass from the day I learned about them, I have no brand agenda, I could care less. My term clone just meant the two are identical, get over it overkill.


That's fine, but the term clone generally means the copy of another, making one the original. In this case the original is the EaO. I'm a fan of facts and that's why I corrected you (you asked earlier why it mattered). If you are going to be our dedicated Redline advocate, expect your posts to get a bit more scrutiny than the guys that are just "me too"'ing the SOPUS status quo

I have been an advocate of glass media filters on this site since I first learned about Donaldson's pioneering efforts with their Synteq glass media, which is the genesis for everything that has come since. Here's a thread from 2008 when I purchased an entire case of Donaldson SYNTEQ filters for the SBF. In addition to Donaldson, Fleetguard made a limited range of glass media filters for common gas or dual gas/diesel applications. AMSOIL was the first to take that media and have a filter assembled (I believe originally by Donaldson or WIX, can't remember now) for typical passenger car applications. That eventually changed to Champion Labs. It wasn't until years later that the Purolator Synthetic, WIX Platinum, Royal Purple, TRD, Ford Racing and FRAM Ultra filters would appear on the scene.

AMSOIL's relationship with Donaldson also extended to air filters, however that exercise has been phased out, as the sales volume wasn't there. This is unfortunate, as the excellent Donaldson nanofiber filtration media is otherwise unavailable in a traditional air filter.

Originally Posted By: burla
Whether or not someone tries the pao/ester fluids available to fight tick or not is their choice. Too bad we don't have more options then the cus word Redline, but at least we do have redline as an option built to stick between that ticking condition more then the sparce oil formulations of today.


There's MOTUL as well, FWIW.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: irv

Thanks Overkill. I notice Redline oil is tough to get in my neck of the woods but I can get it. It is pricey however so I'll just stick with my current fave, PP or PUP.
Curious, do you happen to know which is better as far as MRV goes between the 2 oils or is it a moot point?

It's a moot point assuming you are looking at the same grade in each. You won't see a dramatic difference unless you step it up to a 0w-xx, in which case both CCS and MRV visc will be significantly less than a 5w-xx at the same temperature. However the limits in place are well tested, so that visc variance may be of no consequence.

Yes this, the "W" rating is the correct place to look.

 

[burla]

All "W" ratings are the same? no they aren't.

I like Motul, if you take their top of the line 300v 5w30 you end with with an 11 visc at operating, 9 points off redlin's 11.9e. You also end up with a 3.5 hths, instead of the 3.7 you get with redline. However, if you could equal redline numbers under heat, why not Motul. But until the match redline's numbers, why bother?

I will have to agree if you think America redline is a cus word, definitely try Foreign Motul instead of playing the my group 3 is better game. Motul is a real Boutique like redline. I have been troubled because some of their uoa's have moly omitted in the formula, but I also am troubled that redline has been lowering it's moly as well since the day they sold. Who knows where these formulas will end up tomorrow, I am grateful to have real options to deal with hemi tick. Some engines aren't benefiting from the LSPI friendly oils, but the gov't doesn't really care about that one, go figure.

 

[burla]

You can have oils with the same W rating pour ten full degrees apart. While that doesn't tell the story of how that oil circulates when cold, it is at least a hint

 

[burla]

Motul you need an enigma machine to decipher which 8100 to use, but generally all of them are less then 300v when it comes to something you may want against tick.

motul
300v
x-cess
x-clean
eco-nergy
ecolight
7100

yada yada

Which oil is which? And which oil out performs redline, wuld be good to know before chosing that as an option.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
You can have oils with the same W rating pour ten full degrees apart. While that doesn't tell the story of how that oil circulates when cold, it is at least a hint

Pour point isn't useful, that's why it was eliminated for determining cold temperature performance and was instead replaced with CCS and MRV. Oils whose pour point would indicate that they should flow at some low temperature didn't, resulting in a rash of failed engines which resulted in the creation of the CCS and MRV standards.

What pour point, on the low-end of the range, is somewhat useful for is gleaning whether there's a significant amount of PAO in a product, since PAO doesn't have wax in it to crystallize, it carries with it an obscenely low pour point.

An oil with a high portion of PAO in it can still fail the CCS visc rating however, despite having an insanely low pour point, because it still gets heavy as the temperature drops, it just doesn't gel. Ergo, it will still pass MRV (still be pumpable) but its impact on cranking speed visc sets the floor for the W rating in that scenario. That's why you'll see light PAO bases used with VII rather than just a heavy PAO base that would otherwise not need VII's in it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
Motul you need an enigma machine to decipher which 8100 to use, but generally all of them are less then 300v when it comes to something you may want against tick.

motul
300v
x-cess
x-clean
eco-nergy
ecolight
7100

yada yada

Which oil is which? And which oil out performs redline, wuld be good to know before chosing that as an option.


I believe they advertise their 300V as having the most ester base in it. It may have more than Redline, which is predominantly PAO.

AMSOIL is also predominantly PAO, as are some Mobil 1 grades, though on the thin end of the spectrum.

Also keep in mind that there are a few different types of moly out there including Infinium's tri-nuclear variety which is purported to be used by Mobil and Shell.

 

[burla]

TN moly seams to have no better effect then organic moly in redline, if it is the Moly that is the key, a distinct possibility. PUP 0w40 if TN moly, and Amsoil 5w30 if TN moly, both left ticks killed by redline. I still do not know why redline is killing the ticks, just that it is killing the ticks. Could be the moly, in which case a super dose of Lubeguards biotech in theory should also kill ticks. or polarity of the base oil, in which case you would need ester content to kill ticks, also possible to duplicate with bio guards biotech, but impossible to isolate as they have no known organic moly additive w/o esters, a note maybe liquimoly newer moly treat might for the first time have a similar moly dose w/o esters. Yes some success was had with Mso2, but not nearly the same as redline at killing ticks. If hths was the key, hard to believe as 5w20 redline has also killed ticks including mine. Answer to why is still in the air, answer "if" has been settled to a high degree. It is worth a shot of you don't replace the lifters, unless you like the tick.