Shops not willing to do hard work?
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Originally Posted by dishdude
They're afraid of "marrying" it. Usually the owner expects it to run perfect when they get it back not realizing it's still a project car.
Yep. Full of " it didn't do that before" stuff even though you knew it was doing it before you worked on it. Often a part needs to be shipped from Germany. This isn't as much of a big deal as it was 20 years ago when they put parts on a boat,then they had to sit weeks in customs before being delivered. I remember waiting months for MB parts. The cars are over engineered in many cases and are just a night mare to work on. Most shops including where I work consider them "junk" and often not worth fixing.
Many owners want to drive the status car but balk at the cost of repairs.
They're afraid of "marrying" it. Usually the owner expects it to run perfect when they get it back not realizing it's still a project car.
Yep. Full of " it didn't do that before" stuff even though you knew it was doing it before you worked on it. Often a part needs to be shipped from Germany. This isn't as much of a big deal as it was 20 years ago when they put parts on a boat,then they had to sit weeks in customs before being delivered. I remember waiting months for MB parts. The cars are over engineered in many cases and are just a night mare to work on. Most shops including where I work consider them "junk" and often not worth fixing.
Many owners want to drive the status car but balk at the cost of repairs.
Start looking for independents [gray beards] that specialize in MBs... my father recently retired after 35 yrs in the business. 10-15 yrs ago I remember doing plenty of HGs, valves, injection pumps, CIS, injectors, etc... By the time he retired, I think we only had one or two customers with diesel MBs from the W123-W126 period. Nicely over-built, but dirty, loud and slow... but I still think fondly back on my 300CD with a transplanted 617 turbo and 4 spd.
Originally Posted by PimTac
Years ago a brother had his 49 International KB1 engine rebuilt. The shop called the previous mechanic who was retired and he gladly came back in just for that job. The main bearings were poured babbit and no one had the experience of doing that.
He was very thankful for that job. He was around 80 at the time.
This story brought a little tear to my eye.
Years ago a brother had his 49 International KB1 engine rebuilt. The shop called the previous mechanic who was retired and he gladly came back in just for that job. The main bearings were poured babbit and no one had the experience of doing that.
He was very thankful for that job. He was around 80 at the time.
This story brought a little tear to my eye.
Originally Posted by CT8
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
This is becoming not just truth... but gospel.
It sucks to have to eat a big job that went bad.
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
This is becoming not just truth... but gospel.
It sucks to have to eat a big job that went bad.
Reading between the lines ( ... it's just not worth it for us to do the job ...) what they are telling you is they are over-charging for trivial mechanical work and don't want to take on a job that pays what would be an honest shop rate. Swap-out mechanics is easy and pays the same as actual repair, so why do actual repair?
Originally Posted by CT8
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
Exactly. I always strongly discourage head gasket jobs on old stuff unless it's for a regular customer who we know. When you do a head job on an old exotic engine, not only are you signing up for anything and everything that thing has to throw at you, but you are unknowingly giving that engine a new warranty. Anything ever happens to that engine for the rest of time, and you're the last person who went in there and it's your fault. You will be blamed and harassed.
Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad
Reading between the lines ( ... it's just not worth it for us to do the job ...) what they are telling you is they are over-charging for trivial mechanical work and don't want to take on a job that pays what would be an honest shop rate. Swap-out mechanics is easy and pays the same as actual repair, so why do actual repair?
Doubt it. Some motor vehicles can end up using an exaggerated amount of shop resources, making the job literally or nearly unprofitable. Shop rates are expectations. They don't adjust themselves to the reality of the task at hand. Work that is pretty much guaranteed to go as expected is far more desirable than something which is basically Russian Roulette.
When the feces begins hitting the fan, you are left with two choices:
1. Increase the cost of the job to compensate for the increased work, and get accused of being a [censored] chiseler.
Or:
2. Stick to the written estimate and watch the profit go out the window, making it a charity job.
Either result is simply best avoided in the first place. That's what happened to OP. Old Mercedes are no joke. You have small wires and pipes in those things that sticker for $1100-2000 and can only be gotten from former Third Reich countries. You have stuff that can't even be replaced, and can only be sent out to be rebuilt with multi-week turnaround times. You have stuff that breaks just by looking at it too hard. I stopped restoring cars precisely because I hated making 35 phone calls to find one stupid part that costs a small fortune, just to then listen to a customer complain for 45 minutes about how much it costs.
Count me out.
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
Exactly. I always strongly discourage head gasket jobs on old stuff unless it's for a regular customer who we know. When you do a head job on an old exotic engine, not only are you signing up for anything and everything that thing has to throw at you, but you are unknowingly giving that engine a new warranty. Anything ever happens to that engine for the rest of time, and you're the last person who went in there and it's your fault. You will be blamed and harassed.
Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad
Reading between the lines ( ... it's just not worth it for us to do the job ...) what they are telling you is they are over-charging for trivial mechanical work and don't want to take on a job that pays what would be an honest shop rate. Swap-out mechanics is easy and pays the same as actual repair, so why do actual repair?
Doubt it. Some motor vehicles can end up using an exaggerated amount of shop resources, making the job literally or nearly unprofitable. Shop rates are expectations. They don't adjust themselves to the reality of the task at hand. Work that is pretty much guaranteed to go as expected is far more desirable than something which is basically Russian Roulette.
When the feces begins hitting the fan, you are left with two choices:
1. Increase the cost of the job to compensate for the increased work, and get accused of being a [censored] chiseler.
Or:
2. Stick to the written estimate and watch the profit go out the window, making it a charity job.
Either result is simply best avoided in the first place. That's what happened to OP. Old Mercedes are no joke. You have small wires and pipes in those things that sticker for $1100-2000 and can only be gotten from former Third Reich countries. You have stuff that can't even be replaced, and can only be sent out to be rebuilt with multi-week turnaround times. You have stuff that breaks just by looking at it too hard. I stopped restoring cars precisely because I hated making 35 phone calls to find one stupid part that costs a small fortune, just to then listen to a customer complain for 45 minutes about how much it costs.
Count me out.
The car is a toy. I have to ask what is real impact to letting the head gasket really fail in full then deal with it. It may never happen. They don't call these cars Beirut taxis for nothing. They are tough.
I think the issue is lots to go sideways during job and does shop know you? Some customers scream if it is one penny over estimate. I am surprised they don't estimate twice job if they don't know you.
I think the issue is lots to go sideways during job and does shop know you? Some customers scream if it is one penny over estimate. I am surprised they don't estimate twice job if they don't know you.
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Our shop started sourcing parts from Brazil for BMWs. They are made there and shipped to Germany for resale to the US market. Cost was usually about 1/4 the cost from BMW and actually had the factory stampings.
I wish I could remember the supplier we worked with, sorry.
Smoky
I wish I could remember the supplier we worked with, sorry.
Smoky
Originally Posted by andyd
Just curious, what makes doing a Mercedes diesel head gasket so bad? Especially if you catch it before an over heat?
It not bad or even hard to do its the possible issues that can arise with these, if the pre-chambers need replacing you need a special tool and the chambers cost over
$200ea x 6 and they have been in there over 20 years and they are probably not coming out easy. I have most of the tools for these engines from Hazet but some are not being made anymore and gone obsolete.
Even the valve adjusting tools are getting scarce.
They require inside and outside special spline socket that are not standard, special pin sockets and a few other special tools, then comes the injector heat shields and the injectors and nozzles themselves if there are any injector issues that can start getting a bit pricey.
The valve springs have a needle thrust bearing under them that sometimes need replacing and then the valve job if needed itself, machining the head flat then the cam condition, this can very expensive quickly.
If the engine has low miles it may be a quick not too involved job but you never know, the question is do you have the skills and the tooling to properly repair it if it isn't.
Just curious, what makes doing a Mercedes diesel head gasket so bad? Especially if you catch it before an over heat?
It not bad or even hard to do its the possible issues that can arise with these, if the pre-chambers need replacing you need a special tool and the chambers cost over
$200ea x 6 and they have been in there over 20 years and they are probably not coming out easy. I have most of the tools for these engines from Hazet but some are not being made anymore and gone obsolete.
Even the valve adjusting tools are getting scarce.
They require inside and outside special spline socket that are not standard, special pin sockets and a few other special tools, then comes the injector heat shields and the injectors and nozzles themselves if there are any injector issues that can start getting a bit pricey.
The valve springs have a needle thrust bearing under them that sometimes need replacing and then the valve job if needed itself, machining the head flat then the cam condition, this can very expensive quickly.
If the engine has low miles it may be a quick not too involved job but you never know, the question is do you have the skills and the tooling to properly repair it if it isn't.
The shop I use is owned by a guy a little older than me. Al is stone cold reliable and BUSY. Understanding how busy he is, I send him work that I just flat out do not have time for or maybe I don't have an expensive tool required. I do everything else myself.
I need to swap out the driver side engine mount on my Suburban. It's one of those jobs I'd rather farm out to be done while I'm at work so I asked Al. He said his lead guy is in the hospital and he doesn't want the kid working on my truck. He was swamped that week so check in next week. I'm just going to have to do it myself I think.
This was the first time he put me on hold but it made me realize his crew was aging and this was probably how it was gonna be from here on out.
Another time, years ago, I asked a few shops to swap an engine in a 1998 Yukon for me since I had no place to do it. No one wanted to tie up a bay for that length of time.
I'm a few months away from building my new garage. Can't wait.
I need to swap out the driver side engine mount on my Suburban. It's one of those jobs I'd rather farm out to be done while I'm at work so I asked Al. He said his lead guy is in the hospital and he doesn't want the kid working on my truck. He was swamped that week so check in next week. I'm just going to have to do it myself I think.
This was the first time he put me on hold but it made me realize his crew was aging and this was probably how it was gonna be from here on out.
Another time, years ago, I asked a few shops to swap an engine in a 1998 Yukon for me since I had no place to do it. No one wanted to tie up a bay for that length of time.
I'm a few months away from building my new garage. Can't wait.
In the last 15 years it's gotten really bad, getting brake lines replaced is akin to totaling out the vehicle these days and brake lines cut and ready to use have gotten much more difficult to source.
More or less you need to do all your own work if you need something more than an oil and filter change
Not that long ago I could get cheap replacement gas tanks, you could get radiator or tanks brazed cheaply and you could even reasonably get an older vehicle partially rebuilt if you wanted but those days are gone, old shadetree mechanics that do basic work are long gone.
Add to that it's even hard to find folks that are very expensive and competent and do the work they are paid for.
Sad state of affairs but it's due to the very high fixed costs of having a shop anywhere but on a farm and farmers are disappearing rapidly as well.
Ah well, nothing like disposable cars
More or less you need to do all your own work if you need something more than an oil and filter change
Not that long ago I could get cheap replacement gas tanks, you could get radiator or tanks brazed cheaply and you could even reasonably get an older vehicle partially rebuilt if you wanted but those days are gone, old shadetree mechanics that do basic work are long gone.
Add to that it's even hard to find folks that are very expensive and competent and do the work they are paid for.
Sad state of affairs but it's due to the very high fixed costs of having a shop anywhere but on a farm and farmers are disappearing rapidly as well.
Ah well, nothing like disposable cars
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Left engine mount on a GMT400 shouldn't be that hard.
It won't be. Looks like I remove the section of steering column, support the engine and undo seven bolts. This is on an 09 Suburban.
Left engine mount on a GMT400 shouldn't be that hard.
It won't be. Looks like I remove the section of steering column, support the engine and undo seven bolts. This is on an 09 Suburban.
I was having a state inspection done on my car yesterday. I heard the owner call a customer and say "Your carburetor is ready." That's not something you hear every day.
Through the waiting room window, I could see one of the mechanics working on a C3 Corvette with red line tires. They had an early T-bird in last time I was there.
Through the waiting room window, I could see one of the mechanics working on a C3 Corvette with red line tires. They had an early T-bird in last time I was there.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad
Reading between the lines ( ... it's just not worth it for us to do the job ...) what they are telling you is they are over-charging for trivial mechanical work and don't want to take on a job that pays what would be an honest shop rate. Swap-out mechanics is easy and pays the same as actual repair, so why do actual repair?
I don't necessarily doubt that is the case at some shops. But one of the shops I called does cater to enthusiasts. I know from experience they would do anything else on that car. It was literally a small shop - can't take on a big job answer.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to me since if I'm paying a tech straight time, however long it takes is however long it takes.
I wouldn't have an expectation that book time stands if doing an involved job.
The fact that it does is shame on the charlatans and profit mongers in the industry.
But I do still get a feel that there's a real skill and knowledge issue existing as well.
The shop I took it to, who I haven't used in over a decade, immediately stated how far they were booking out, and when I could bring it in.
My observation is that we're actually losing machine shop capabilities. Special tools I doubt are getting any less of an issue, with the need for all sorts of special diagnostic tools and whatnot. It seems that finding someone willing to do machining is possibly more of the issue. I doubt I'd be turned away if it were an evaporator or some other involved interior job.
Reading between the lines ( ... it's just not worth it for us to do the job ...) what they are telling you is they are over-charging for trivial mechanical work and don't want to take on a job that pays what would be an honest shop rate. Swap-out mechanics is easy and pays the same as actual repair, so why do actual repair?
I don't necessarily doubt that is the case at some shops. But one of the shops I called does cater to enthusiasts. I know from experience they would do anything else on that car. It was literally a small shop - can't take on a big job answer.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to me since if I'm paying a tech straight time, however long it takes is however long it takes.
I wouldn't have an expectation that book time stands if doing an involved job.
The fact that it does is shame on the charlatans and profit mongers in the industry.
But I do still get a feel that there's a real skill and knowledge issue existing as well.
The shop I took it to, who I haven't used in over a decade, immediately stated how far they were booking out, and when I could bring it in.
My observation is that we're actually losing machine shop capabilities. Special tools I doubt are getting any less of an issue, with the need for all sorts of special diagnostic tools and whatnot. It seems that finding someone willing to do machining is possibly more of the issue. I doubt I'd be turned away if it were an evaporator or some other involved interior job.
I suppose it's better for them to politely decline, then to toss you an "I don't want the job" price. Chances are you'd overpay and not be happy anyway.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by CT8
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
This is becoming not just truth... but gospel.
It sucks to have to eat a big job that went bad.
When was this not the case?
This car is not an electrical conglomeration. There is one electrical connection on the injection pump that if removed will still operate. The other sensors are merely for gauges and aux fan operation. This isn't a DPF, catalyzed monstrosity.
And these shops that know these cars, at least to some point, know that. These are fairly low tech IDI diesels.
Trav's point about prechambers is a good one. But seized metals being a potential is not a construct of the last few years. It's physics.
Yes small plastic clips can break, and pieces can be unknowns. But the proper business practice for this would be to not quote straight time; accept the job on straight time with a cautious approach.
If a shop has only one or two bays, I kind of get it. None of whom I called are that small. I think it's all an excuse for lack of knowledge and capability. Liability can be transferred easily and upfront with smart business practice.
Originally Posted by CT8
The shops don't want to work on old stuff because it usually means opening up a can of worms that leads to an unhappy customer for all the possible reasons..
This is becoming not just truth... but gospel.
It sucks to have to eat a big job that went bad.
When was this not the case?
This car is not an electrical conglomeration. There is one electrical connection on the injection pump that if removed will still operate. The other sensors are merely for gauges and aux fan operation. This isn't a DPF, catalyzed monstrosity.
And these shops that know these cars, at least to some point, know that. These are fairly low tech IDI diesels.
Trav's point about prechambers is a good one. But seized metals being a potential is not a construct of the last few years. It's physics.
Yes small plastic clips can break, and pieces can be unknowns. But the proper business practice for this would be to not quote straight time; accept the job on straight time with a cautious approach.
If a shop has only one or two bays, I kind of get it. None of whom I called are that small. I think it's all an excuse for lack of knowledge and capability. Liability can be transferred easily and upfront with smart business practice.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by JTK
I suppose it's better for them to politely decline, then to toss you an "I don't want the job" price. Chances are you'd overpay and not be happy anyway.
I don't get the "not be happy" part. Overpay? Maybe. That's between the business and the person accepting work or walking.
But not sure there's a lot to be unhappy about if the job was completed in a reasonable and quality manner.
My only experience, however, was headgasket on a Plymouth 2.0L which then went on to run for another 150k or so just fine. That was an aluminum 4cyl, got it, but the concept of being unhappy should be the same.
I suppose it's better for them to politely decline, then to toss you an "I don't want the job" price. Chances are you'd overpay and not be happy anyway.
I don't get the "not be happy" part. Overpay? Maybe. That's between the business and the person accepting work or walking.
But not sure there's a lot to be unhappy about if the job was completed in a reasonable and quality manner.
My only experience, however, was headgasket on a Plymouth 2.0L which then went on to run for another 150k or so just fine. That was an aluminum 4cyl, got it, but the concept of being unhappy should be the same.
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