Reliability?
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I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
I drive a 1995 Ford Escort that I bought new, and it replaced a 1985 Escort that I also bought new. Both cars are very reliable!
I drive a 1995 Ford Escort that I bought new, and it replaced a 1985 Escort that I also bought new. Both cars are very reliable!
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
Are they really the same exact parts?
Do Lexus workers get paid more than Toyota workers? Do Lexus cars undergo more quality control?
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
Are they really the same exact parts?
Do Lexus workers get paid more than Toyota workers? Do Lexus cars undergo more quality control?
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: dishdude
They send out a questionnaire about problems with your vehicle and other appliances. Have you ever had a conversation with a coworker or family member about a trip to the repair shop? They have no idea what was wrong or what the repair was. GIGO.
Actually, yes I do and they generally know what's up. They may not know that the fuel injector took a dump. But they knew there was an engine problem. Or that they heard a noise and the dealer replaced xxx to fix it.
May not be the norm but there is enough data for them to break things down by engine, body, infotainment, etc.
I really don't think people are intentionally misleading in the surveys. They may not know exactly what was wrong but they know when stuff breaks.
No, they don't. They have no idea if it was something minor or a major engine rebuild, they just know it made a really bad noise or quit working. A bad injector does not equate to throwing a rod and they wouldn't know the difference between a fuel injector or an engine piston if you put both in front of them. This lack of understanding how an engine operates directly impacts CR's reliability ratings.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
They send out a questionnaire about problems with your vehicle and other appliances. Have you ever had a conversation with a coworker or family member about a trip to the repair shop? They have no idea what was wrong or what the repair was. GIGO.
Actually, yes I do and they generally know what's up. They may not know that the fuel injector took a dump. But they knew there was an engine problem. Or that they heard a noise and the dealer replaced xxx to fix it.
May not be the norm but there is enough data for them to break things down by engine, body, infotainment, etc.
I really don't think people are intentionally misleading in the surveys. They may not know exactly what was wrong but they know when stuff breaks.
No, they don't. They have no idea if it was something minor or a major engine rebuild, they just know it made a really bad noise or quit working. A bad injector does not equate to throwing a rod and they wouldn't know the difference between a fuel injector or an engine piston if you put both in front of them. This lack of understanding how an engine operates directly impacts CR's reliability ratings.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
CU road tests are probably the gold standard among those available since the drivers while as competent as any you'll find at any buff book aren't wannabe racers and report honestly on any giver car's behavior.
CU buys the cars it tests out of dealer stock, so no prepped cars make it into a road test and this is not the case for the buff books.
CU reliability data is probably about as good as it gets unless you have access to a large fleet database.
Some cars are significantly less troublesome than others and there is probably no better source of reliability data for the vast majority of us.
If you buy a car shown to be more trouble-prone than average in CU's data, then at least you know what you're looking at going in.
I read CR from the library. I really don't understand the hatation for an objective publication that buys the products it tests and isn't a [censored] to any advertiser.
I 100% agree
CU road tests are probably the gold standard among those available since the drivers while as competent as any you'll find at any buff book aren't wannabe racers and report honestly on any giver car's behavior.
CU buys the cars it tests out of dealer stock, so no prepped cars make it into a road test and this is not the case for the buff books.
CU reliability data is probably about as good as it gets unless you have access to a large fleet database.
Some cars are significantly less troublesome than others and there is probably no better source of reliability data for the vast majority of us.
If you buy a car shown to be more trouble-prone than average in CU's data, then at least you know what you're looking at going in.
I read CR from the library. I really don't understand the hatation for an objective publication that buys the products it tests and isn't a [censored] to any advertiser.
I 100% agree
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
Are they really the same exact parts?
Do Lexus workers get paid more than Toyota workers? Do Lexus cars undergo more quality control?
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
Are they really the same exact parts?
Do Lexus workers get paid more than Toyota workers? Do Lexus cars undergo more quality control?
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
OK, so that covers GM. What does that have to do with Toyota?
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
OK, so that covers GM. What does that have to do with Toyota?
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
OK, so that covers GM. What does that have to do with Toyota?
It's not fact, it's the ramblings of a moron with a keyboard.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I don't think you get it. An Aveo has the same parts and quality control as any Caddie. This is a fact.
OK, so that covers GM. What does that have to do with Toyota?
It's not fact, it's the ramblings of a moron with a keyboard.
I feel statically that CU reliability ratings are the best available. They do break down engine & transmission problems to a Major or Minor problem. Dealers give the vehicle owner the problem area. I also tend to agree most of the time with their subjective evaluations. Ed
Originally Posted By: Run
I don't trust Consumer Reports just because they seem very biased.
They provide information on making a buying choice. How do you do that WITHOUT expressing a "bias"
I don't trust Consumer Reports just because they seem very biased.
They provide information on making a buying choice. How do you do that WITHOUT expressing a "bias"
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I feel statically that CU reliability ratings are the best available. They do break down engine & transmission problems to a Major or Minor problem. Dealers give the vehicle owner the problem area. I also tend to agree most of the time with their subjective evaluations. Ed
I think they're a quick shot at what's out there if you're in a hurry. I just prefer to read the individual car forums. If you spend time looking through the forums, you'll find out what the problem areas of a car are. Of course that doesn't really help with a new model.
I feel statically that CU reliability ratings are the best available. They do break down engine & transmission problems to a Major or Minor problem. Dealers give the vehicle owner the problem area. I also tend to agree most of the time with their subjective evaluations. Ed
I think they're a quick shot at what's out there if you're in a hurry. I just prefer to read the individual car forums. If you spend time looking through the forums, you'll find out what the problem areas of a car are. Of course that doesn't really help with a new model.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Run
I don't trust Consumer Reports just because they seem very biased.
I say so for their reviews. Their reviews are garbage. But the reliability data comes from their subscribers. What incentive would someone have to lie about a $20-60k purchase? And if you bought something with "low reliability" and it turned out to be good wouldn't you want to tell everyone?
Their reliability data also tends to sync up with others.
Their subscribers are a subset of the population that chooses to be told what TV to buy, because they fail at such things themselves.
If they bought a CR recommended *whatever* and it broke, they'd assume they failed somehow as a person, it wasn't the widget's fault, and they wouldn't accurately describe their one-off poor experience.
However if CR said it was a lemon they'd pile on.
I know if I had to sell a set of struts to a camry owner at 80k, and could read denial and confusion all over their face, I'd say it's not your fault, the roads around here are a potholed disaster, etc.
The camry owner might consider handling improvmeents to be "elective surgery" vs a BMW owner, who would call it "necessary". Ignoring the wallowy handling of a mid-life car, they remain smug at how "reliable" it is.
Originally Posted By: Run
I don't trust Consumer Reports just because they seem very biased.
I say so for their reviews. Their reviews are garbage. But the reliability data comes from their subscribers. What incentive would someone have to lie about a $20-60k purchase? And if you bought something with "low reliability" and it turned out to be good wouldn't you want to tell everyone?
Their reliability data also tends to sync up with others.
Their subscribers are a subset of the population that chooses to be told what TV to buy, because they fail at such things themselves.
If they bought a CR recommended *whatever* and it broke, they'd assume they failed somehow as a person, it wasn't the widget's fault, and they wouldn't accurately describe their one-off poor experience.
However if CR said it was a lemon they'd pile on.
I know if I had to sell a set of struts to a camry owner at 80k, and could read denial and confusion all over their face, I'd say it's not your fault, the roads around here are a potholed disaster, etc.
The camry owner might consider handling improvmeents to be "elective surgery" vs a BMW owner, who would call it "necessary". Ignoring the wallowy handling of a mid-life car, they remain smug at how "reliable" it is.
CR is not the bible.
It is only a general guide and should not be considered as the Holy Grail.
Years ago they had a huge Japanese bias.
It is only a general guide and should not be considered as the Holy Grail.
Years ago they had a huge Japanese bias.
All I have to say is I have never experienced the so-called low reliability of domestics.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
I drive a 1995 Ford Escort that I bought new, and it replaced a 1985 Escort that I also bought new. Both cars are very reliable!
Toyota shares parts only in low end Es sedans which is fwd platform and an suv. The balance of cars are rwd based and have different engines etc. also Toyota is produced in North America with near 80-90 North American parts. Lexus is pure Japanese.
I do not understand how Lexus rates higher than Toyota, since they use the same parts, and presumably have more stuff on them to go wrong. I guess it really has more to do with how much you paid for the car.
I drive a 1995 Ford Escort that I bought new, and it replaced a 1985 Escort that I also bought new. Both cars are very reliable!
Toyota shares parts only in low end Es sedans which is fwd platform and an suv. The balance of cars are rwd based and have different engines etc. also Toyota is produced in North America with near 80-90 North American parts. Lexus is pure Japanese.
I think a lot has to do with buying an established model. For example, the Chevy Cruze had some recalls and other issues when it first came out in 2011, but after the first two or so years they got the issues ironed out. My sis bought one (2014 lt 1.4 with 6 speed manual) and it has had only one issue in 25K miles. They drive in the mountains of WV and had the brake rotors warp (or wear unevenly or whatever). It was fixed under warranty.
One thing folks do not and ever get is stats nor read them.
A "poor" reliability car on consumer reports means typically bunch of areas with >20% issues. For the laymen it means you have a 2-3 chances in 10 of having that issue. The "reliable" means lied to while 9 folks of ten drive on.....
The stats are just a tool and not predictive of your personal experience but depict a likelyhood of issues. And yes they weigh major engine more heavily in overall reliability then a audio issue(eg quirky) touch screen.
A "poor" reliability car on consumer reports means typically bunch of areas with >20% issues. For the laymen it means you have a 2-3 chances in 10 of having that issue. The "reliable" means lied to while 9 folks of ten drive on.....
The stats are just a tool and not predictive of your personal experience but depict a likelyhood of issues. And yes they weigh major engine more heavily in overall reliability then a audio issue(eg quirky) touch screen.
I must say that I didn't think that any of my domestic vehicles were unreliable until I bought a Japanese made car. On my 2001 Pontiac Bonneville I had to replace the HVAC blower every 60K, alternator at 90K, front rotors and low-beam bulbs(OEM) every 10-15K, and 3 of 4 of the window regulators by the 100K mark. My wife's 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix is similar except it still has its original HVAC blower at the 160K mark. I thought it was all just part of owning a car and I did all the work myself so the cost didn't bother me much.
Now I have a Subaru and the only repair that I've had to do was one low-beam bulb at the 90K mark.
Now I have a Subaru and the only repair that I've had to do was one low-beam bulb at the 90K mark.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
No, they don't. They have no idea if it was something minor or a major engine rebuild, they just know it made a really bad noise or quit working. A bad injector does not equate to throwing a rod and they wouldn't know the difference between a fuel injector or an engine piston if you put both in front of them. This lack of understanding how an engine operates directly impacts CR's reliability ratings.
And how does that impact it? They are both engine pieces, both could leave you on the side of the road. Both require your new "toy" to be fixed.
Sure you can split minutia but the end result is the same - the engine needed to be fixed!
No, they don't. They have no idea if it was something minor or a major engine rebuild, they just know it made a really bad noise or quit working. A bad injector does not equate to throwing a rod and they wouldn't know the difference between a fuel injector or an engine piston if you put both in front of them. This lack of understanding how an engine operates directly impacts CR's reliability ratings.
And how does that impact it? They are both engine pieces, both could leave you on the side of the road. Both require your new "toy" to be fixed.
Sure you can split minutia but the end result is the same - the engine needed to be fixed!
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