Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related?

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Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
All I know is for all the V8's I've owned, I've never heard of this. Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler.
GM had the EXACT same lifter failure issue with the AFM engines, but they use billet cam cores, not SADI, so the cams typically survive the lifter failure. They appear to have the same lifter supplier (they look identical) and I expect that the issue has been solved at this point with updated lifters.
 
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Originally Posted by JKW
There's a You Tube piece on this problem. He thinks he has found the answer. It is bad design. The camshaft was put much higher in the block causing the lifters to be at a closer to flat angle. There is a main oil gallery above the camshaft that blocks drip oil at low engine speeds. There is no oiling from the lifters, oiling depends on splash from the crankshaft, so if you keep your revs over 2500 the engine will live longer. see it here, best explanation I've seen so far.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9SzQNYLqsPQGY_nbHogDDw
Read the thread, for the love of God.
 
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Maricopa Arizona
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Well! A pressurized oil gallery right to the lifter bore! One of the video commenters states he was in Chrysler Engineering and claims the problem is sticky valves due to valve seats being too tight, seizing on warmup (view comments on link above). Seems like nobody really knows. Which is why we're concerned, of course. Others claim HEMI rate of failures isn't much different than other V8 engines. I wouldn't know - where is the data? Of course the car companies aren't going to tell us. It's all speculation based on only a couple of data points. All I know is for all the V8's I've owned, I've never heard of this. Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2828939/3/ram-hemi-hydraulic-lifter-failure-oil-related#:~:text=The%20HEMI%20failure%20rate%20is%20about%2011%20per%201%2C000%20manufactured. After 16 years if the failure rate was significantly higher for the HEMI compared to it's counterparts FCA would not be able to sell one. Let alone have the 3rd best selling vehicle and it's most popular engine is a HEMI.
 
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They are all CRITICALLY FLAWED! hah. its an issue, all engines have issues. I think its a clearance issue on the lifter bore and involved oil pressure/rpm of course, if its too tight? it would burn out a lifter? If its too loose it might also do the same thing. Too tight would mean its doing it from the get go, thats not happening. To loose? Too heavy of oil? Too light of oil? Think about it, the needle bearings simply aren't getting enough oil... they wear and voila! That is the responsibility of the oil galley in the lifter bore, it pushes oil 360 degrees both directions. Oil comes out the top and bottom, the bottom lubricates the needle bearings and the cam contact point. Tony seems to think this lifter isn't moving... it is and oil is rushing down it. Its not getting "lucky" by a crank splash... Is it a drip? Is it a gusher? Idle is 4psi? Now at some point, after 70-80k some engines fail due to oil not reaching those needle bearings and then the lifter roller fails and the cam starts getting eaten. Are they cheap needle bearings? Idle oil pressure is the most obvious guess that would exacerbate the problem... the engine is moving slower the pressure lower, so yes maybe then its more of a drip down the lifter than a toss and splash? I would love to put a camera right there and see if its like a spray? Back to oil pressure and viscosity. The 2005 Hemi calls for 5w30 specifically. 2007 they switch to 5w20 The later "trouble" engines were 5w-20 (required by the MDS system). Oil pressure at curb idle is 4psi per the manual, 3000 rpm says 25-100 psi? A high volume oil pump bumps it 20%... so 4.8 psi at idle? What about the relief valve? if it has an issue it can cause low oil pressure also, oil filter clogged? playing with different oil? I have had different oil filters move my idle oil pressure... I notice Chrysler changes oil pump part numbers alot... they will still work across engines but there are "revisions" going on. The trouble engines are 2010? to 2014? Thats 5 years of the issue being more present? Looking at some "complaint" site and reports of issues... There just isnt a wide spread incidence of Gen 3 hemis failing(they sell a TON), obviously when it happens to you, you rant everywhere you can, thats normal. I asked a chrysler mechanic and they said they typically cover any vehicle under 80k on cam/lifter failure for goodwill sake. So i see cars like 140k going bad, 120k, 160k... What about turning your idle up a bit? 50 rpm? 100 rpm? To say get oil pressure up a bit? I would maybe install an aftermarket oil pressure gauge to show the exact oil pressure if I owned on of these cars. I personally know many people driving Hemi's and have never heard of it happening to them so it can't be "every gen 3 hemi is critically flawed"...
 
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Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Mikes2nd
Oil pressure at curb idle is 4psi per the manual, 3000 rpm says 25-100 psi?d"...
Oil pressure at curb idle is a LOT higher than 4psi, that's probably just the minimum spec. My HEMI's have all sat around 32-38 at hot idle.
 
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Kingston
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Mikes2nd
Oil pressure at curb idle is 4psi per the manual, 3000 rpm says 25-100 psi?d"...
Oil pressure at curb idle is a LOT higher than 4psi, that's probably just the minimum spec. My HEMI's have all sat around 32-38 at hot idle.
Exactly. Something around 6psi at 1000 rpm is the minimum spec on my 4.8 ls motor but with 200k it's running at about 40psi at 1000rpm. It goes as low as 31 at 600 RPM in gear. The minimum spec doesn't really represent real life and I doubt anyone has seen either a Hemi or ls engine with 6 psi oil pressure that doesn't have a major problem. I think they're just trying to avoid warranty repairs by preventing the dealer from being allowed to repair it for a low oil pressure concern.
 
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okay i was just quoting the manual. Okay ive pretty much figured it today... This IS quality control on cam/lifters. I would expect this to be more about the lifter, much more moving parts(needle bearings)... Watching this guys channel, he is a Chrysler trained, active working mechanic... Daily working on Chryslers ALL the time...at the Chrysler training grounds all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSwcFV6FwgI He talks to a performance shop guy Allpar(not affiliated with the mopar history site). They do discuss the 5.7 and 6.4 failures.. They said when they repair a 5.7 they simply toss a new cam/lifters in the car and never see the customer again.(bingo). On a 6.4 they are much tighter tolerances, the oil shavings do damage and cause total failure. THIS 5.7 getting back up and running comment says exactly what alot of people were thinking, there is no flaw in the engine, its strictly bad parts(lifter/cam). My resolution, when you own a Hemi, get a oil test done. Its what 40$? And you have peace of mind. If you see failure, make your choice then. [censored] if i was going to buy a hemi, get a oil sample, send it out smile they talk about valve seats dropping(due to heat), this lasted up till 2011 they said.
 
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Never heard of it. The failure they had was pumping oil past the rings on the 5.3L. I know - I had one. I ran an oil cleaner through it, which cleaned up the rings and slowed the oil consumption, and traded the P.O.S. in. It was a combination of cold AFM cylinders and slppy power cylinder package - NOT the same as HEMI MDS lack of lubrication. Not even close.
 
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Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Never heard of it. The failure they had was pumping oil past the rings on the 5.3L. I know - I had one. I ran an oil cleaner through it, which cleaned up the rings and slowed the oil consumption, and traded the P.O.S. in. It was a combination of cold AFM cylinders and slppy power cylinder package - NOT the same as HEMI MDS lack of lubrication. Not even close.
Do you actually read the threads you reply to or is this your style, dropping in with some shot-from-the-hip garbage? From this thread: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...c-lifter-failure-oil-related#Post5122957
Originally Posted by Melling
TECHNICAL BULLETIN www.melling.com Melling Engine Parts, P.O. Box 1188, Jackson, MI 49210 GM LS AFM Deactivation Lifter Issues We have noticed an increase in the issues surrounding the replacement of deactivation lifters in GM LS engines with Active Fuel Management or AFM. After installing new lifters the original issue may not have been corrected. Most lifters returned for analysis are found to be good. We have found that most lifter faults are caused by oil pressure issues, or control issues.The AFM activation and deactivation is controlled by the Valve Lifter Oil Manifold or VLOM. The VLOM consists of 4 electronically operated solenoids and is bolted to the top of the engine block beneath the intake manifold assembly. Its job is to direct the flow of pressurized engine oil to the active fuel management intake and exhaust valve lifters. VLOM applies pressurized oil to the AFM lifters when cylinder deactivation is requested, and shuts off that supply of oil to reactivate those cylinders. Cylinder activation and deactivation are both supposed to occur on the base circle of the cam lobe, making the transition from four to eight cylinder mode unnoticeable to the driver. To control contamination a small replaceable oil filter is located in the VLOM inlet oil passageway. The AFM oil pressure relief valve regulates the oil supplied to the VLOM and is located in the oil pan near the oil filter housing. The AFM system has an operating range from 27 PSI to 66 PSI of oil pressure. At higher engine speeds the high side of this operating range is controlled by the AFM oil pressure relief valve. At low engine speeds the low side of the operating range will depend on the engines ability to produce oil pressure using the flow of oil from the oil pump.The AFM lifter bores in these engines have a spec of .843-.844, and the deactivation lifters require 22 PSI of pressure to release the locking pins. Taking these two things into consideration a lifter bore that is even slightly worn could bleed off enough oil pressure to prevent the lifter from unlocking. In addition it has been reported that it is common to find the VLOM oil filter plugged and needing replacement on high mileage engines with miss-fire fault codes. Melling has received AFM DEAC lifters back for warranty claims where the lifter has been stuck compressed, this condition can be caused by the VLOM commanding activation or deactivation at the wrong point in the cam's rotation, either in the ramp, or at the lobe peak.Any time an engine has failed AFM lifters the lifter guides must be replaced, the lifter bores must be measured, and the VLOM must also be tested for proper operation, or replaced.In addition the VLOM oil filter must be replaced as well.
Here's another thread on the subject: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4629660/1 Quote from the thread:
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by das_peikko
Originally Posted by clinebarger
I do about 1 of these a month on average, Annoying ticks, Misfires & oil consumption are eliminated!!
How often do you see destroyed camshaft lobes from the AFM lifters, which are collapsed, bouncing up and down between the camshaft lobes and the pushrods?
Not many at all..... I see MORE Non-AFM lifters damage camshafts! Keep in mind that AFM lifters have damper springs on them that keeps the lifter "roller" in contact with the lobe even if they fail/collapse. There are many myths about AFM.... *Oil Pressure is applied to a separate camber in the lifter that forces the plunger to collapse. Many believe the "Pump-Up/Lash control" oil is cut-off to the lifter....Not True.
And another thread: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4058530/all/5.3_freshly_rebuilt??? Quote from the thread:
Originally Posted by clinebarger
AFM Lifter Failures are quite common, It is not a oil related failure, They fail just the same on spotless well maintained engines & Varnished abused engines. Cylinders #1/#4/#6/#7 have the AFM lifters, It is ALWAYS one of those cylinders with issues! My shop does several AFM/DOD deletes a year on 5.3L/6.0L/6.2L Gen IV engines, Trucks/SUV's are TOO EASY! A good Tech can do it in 8 hours, To bad GM dealers have no interest in fixing these engines.
And another non-BITOG thread: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/f...e-in-seattle-is-the-dealer/118452/page1/ Google is your friend.
 
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15,123
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Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by earthbound
my idle at operating temps has never been below 30psi....
Hopefully you have a gauge that shows the actual pressure and not one that acts more like an idiot light.
 
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iowa
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by earthbound
my idle at operating temps has never been below 30psi....
Hopefully you have a gauge that shows the actual pressure and not one that acts more like an idiot light.
sure is...built right into the driver info display along with coolant,oil, and trans temp. it's one thing that Chrysler does right, and I think it's a wonderful idea.
 
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Okay in 2003-2008 the Hemi 5.7L was award winning for pretty much all those years... Its THE exact same design... what changed? The bankruptcy happened in 2009... The hemi lifter cam issues started in 2009... I bet the lifter suppliers was like https://youtu.be/AA2hHPPwtmQ?t=12
 
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Originally Posted by Mikes2nd
Okay in 2003-2008 the Hemi 5.7L was award winning for pretty much all those years... Its THE exact same design... what changed? The bankruptcy happened in 2009... The hemi lifter cam issues started in 2009... I bet the lifter suppliers was like https://youtu.be/AA2hHPPwtmQ?t=12
I was told GM's lifter failures started to become more frequent in 2007 (even in the non AFM engines), with the problem being non existent before 2003. I think it most likely is a parts supplier quality issue. People were having quality issues in the aftermarket too (I'm not sure what years that started) but most of the blame was pointed at zddp reduction, while most of the problem wass likely quality.
 
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Originally Posted by Mikes2nd
Okay in 2003-2008 the Hemi 5.7L was award winning for pretty much all those years... Its THE exact same design... what changed? The bankruptcy happened in 2009... The hemi lifter cam issues started in 2009... I bet the lifter suppliers was like https://youtu.be/AA2hHPPwtmQ?t=12
Recall that the issue primarily takes significant mileage to accrue before occurring. There are lots of award winning engines that become nightmares later in life, like the Northstar. That doesn't mean of course that the supplier issue didn't crop up later.
 
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Originally Posted by Ben99GT
Interesting video regarding Gen III Hemi camshaft/lifter issues:
Keep up man... already been dubunked... spank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdtSPS3IUlo Rofl... He needs to admit he was clueless on the oil galley... This is all youtube click bait... Now Kilmer is piling on because he slammed Chrysler... Kilmer loves to slam Chrysler(toyota guy). I really like "its luck" about getting oil to the lifters/cam...
 
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Originally Posted by Mikes2nd
Originally Posted by Ben99GT
Interesting video regarding Gen III Hemi camshaft/lifter issues:
Keep up man... already been dubunked... spank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdtSPS3IUlo Rofl... He needs to admit he was clueless on the oil galley... This is all youtube click bait... Now Kilmer is piling on because he slammed Chrysler... Kilmer loves to slam Chrysler(toyota guy). I really like "its luck" about getting oil to the lifters/cam...
I don't see a debunking. Was the other guy clueless to the lifter oil galley? I find that hard to believe. He had a block in hand, all it takes if a pair of eyes. The only sure way to really debunk the camshaft lobe lack of lubrication would be to put the engine on a Spintron and monitor camshaft oiling behavior in real-time.
 
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