Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related?

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Originally Posted by Ben99GT
I don't see a debunking. Was the other guy clueless to the lifter oil galley? I find that hard to believe. He had a block in hand, all it takes if a pair of eyes. The only sure way to really debunk the camshaft lobe lack of lubrication would be to put the engine on a Spintron and monitor camshaft oiling behavior in real-time.
He made remarks about scuffing and inadequate lifter body lubrication, which would indeed imply that he didn't know that the lifter bodies were directly oiled. Also, since GM AFM engines experience a similar failure, I don't think we can just chalk it up to lubrication. Most of these engines live long event-free lives, if there was an actual architectural problem, they would ALL fail, which of course they don't.
 
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Originally Posted by OilReport99
Or at least MOST, which of course they don't.
Yup. We have a small fleet of them at work, which I noted back when this thread was in its infancy, none of them have had lifter issues and all of them are getting on in years and quite high in mileage.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Ben99GT
I don't see a debunking. Was the other guy clueless to the lifter oil galley? I find that hard to believe. He had a block in hand, all it takes if a pair of eyes. The only sure way to really debunk the camshaft lobe lack of lubrication would be to put the engine on a Spintron and monitor camshaft oiling behavior in real-time.
He made remarks about scuffing and inadequate lifter body lubrication, which would indeed imply that he didn't know that the lifter bodies were directly oiled. Also, since GM AFM engines experience a similar failure, I don't think we can just chalk it up to lubrication. Most of these engines live long event-free lives, if there was an actual architectural problem, they would ALL fail, which of course they don't.
Hydraulic lifters virtually always have to have an oil galley to supply oil pressure to the lifter's oiling circuit. I find it very hard to believe anyone who has any real hand on experience with engines wouldn't know this. I honestly think this guys words are being misconstrued, with the lifter oil galley being assumed by him to be a given, or generally accepted knowledge. I could be wrong...
 
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Originally Posted by Ben99GT
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Ben99GT
I don't see a debunking. Was the other guy clueless to the lifter oil galley? I find that hard to believe. He had a block in hand, all it takes if a pair of eyes. The only sure way to really debunk the camshaft lobe lack of lubrication would be to put the engine on a Spintron and monitor camshaft oiling behavior in real-time.
He made remarks about scuffing and inadequate lifter body lubrication, which would indeed imply that he didn't know that the lifter bodies were directly oiled. Also, since GM AFM engines experience a similar failure, I don't think we can just chalk it up to lubrication. Most of these engines live long event-free lives, if there was an actual architectural problem, they would ALL fail, which of course they don't.
Hydraulic lifters virtually always have to have an oil galley to supply oil pressure the lifter's oiling circuit. I find it very hard to believe anyone who has any real hand on experience with engines wouldn't know this. I honestly think this guys words are being misconstrued, with the lifter oil galley being assumed by him to be a given. I could be wrong...
I'm just going by what I heard him say in the video shrug You might want to go back and read this whole thread (I know, it's REALLY long) because we get into most of the design and function of this engine along with its MDS system.
 
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There are two completely unrelated issues that cause the infamous "HEMI tik": 1 - an utterly too common header bolt failure (most often back of passenger side). Bolts have to be extracted and new bolts used. There are improved bolts available, but FCA apparently has done little about it. In this case, the tik sound tends to go away after a minute or so of engine running, as the engine warms and tends to seal the header gasket. 2 - the much more catastrophic HEMI tik - caused by lifter roller failure. In nearly all cases, the roller itself collapses, destroying the cam lobe. If the OP didn't have to also have that cam replaced, he is EXTREMELY lucky. This latter failure has been tracked down to oil races that feed the lifters and the rollers - as not being designed well, so oil drains out and takes too long to get back into the lifter to lube it. The "tik" in this case is the oil-starved lifter and roller - the sound begins to fade a bit after the engine warms up. But over time, the tik becomes more persistent and sometimes won't go away. What is happening, mechanically, is that the oil-starved roller and lifter is literally running in a nearly dry condition until oil can make it all the way up through the poorly-designed oil raceway. At other times, the lifter just collapses and destroys the cam lobe. The most common preventative measures: Be sure of the drainback valve in oil filters you use, oils with more Moly (Redline is the current favorite in most RAM and other MOPAR forums), and don't stretch OCI too long. Some were trying to quiet the tik by using a higher viscosity oil - that proved to actually make things worse (even if it sometimes did temporarily quiet the lifter). Apparently its a problem for both MDS and non MDS engines - though significantly more of a problem with MDS (some guys are using a tuner to turn off this fuel-saving function). Unfortunatley, other than the distinctive sound, there really isn't much of a consistent means of knowing when a true failure will happen.
 
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IT isn't an issue with the camshaft lobe lacking lube as much as it is the roller on the top of the hydraulic lifter - THAT is oil starved and starts to "stick" a bit when dry - that begins to wear the lobe (even with some oil on the lobe). But the REAL catastrophic damage to the cam lobe happens when the roller literally collapses and then galls the lobe. No oil is going to prevent lobe damage from that sort of impingement.
 
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he said "The cam is literally lubricated by luck".... LOL I am hunting for the memo that supposedly exists that say they had heat treatment process issues with with needle bearings that caused this. Obviously idling on old oil makes its horribly worse for 16 hours a day(cop cars). I guess you could say it was a lifter design issue? Because they fixed it with a lifter change, better quality control...
 
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Originally Posted by TheBattman
IT isn't an issue with the camshaft lobe lacking lube as much as it is the roller on the top of the hydraulic lifter - THAT is oil starved and starts to "stick" a bit when dry - that begins to wear the lobe (even with some oil on the lobe). But the REAL catastrophic damage to the cam lobe happens when the roller literally collapses and then galls the lobe. No oil is going to prevent lobe damage from that sort of impingement.
The roller on the lifter doesn't so much collapse as it does lock up from its needle bearings seizing and stopping all rotation of the roller.
 
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Has anyone tried Driven FR20 in the Hemi? https://www.drivenracingoil.com/fr20-5w-20-synthetic-street-performance-oil.html Designed specifically for high performance Ford Modular and Chrysler 5.7L Hemi engines, FR20 reduces oil consumption by limiting oil vaporization and foaming. FR20 utilizes advanced mPAO synthetic base oils to provide high temperature and high shear protection for Ford Modular and Chrysler 5.7L Hemi based engines with and without variable valve timing.
 
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In 2016 Lifters were changed. Part #s show a change in Vendor and part # for 6.4 and 5.7 lifters new ones are from Melling
 
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Originally Posted by ddown
In 2016 Lifters were changed. Part #s show a change in Vendor and part # for 6.4 and 5.7 lifters new ones are from Melling
+1 Now the question is whether this change was effective. I have a 2017, I have seen a number of failures reported post-2016 in RamForumz. No statistics on probability, or anything else. But the failure is so egregious (expensive and vehicle-disabling) it is still concerning.
 
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Greetings everyone! Well after about a year of repairing my 2012 Dodge RAM Hemi, it appears the lifter failure is happening again after driving about 50,000 miles since the repair. As a reminder, here is what I did: 1. Replace camshaft to non-MDS cam made by CompCam. 2. Installed MDS plugs to stop oil flow since MDS was deactivated 3. Reprogrammed ECM to deactivate MDS 4. Installed new Hellcat lifters 5. Replace Bank2 valve-train roller-rocker rails (worn from valve loose valve lash) 6. Initially used Redline 5W-30, but due to excessive costs, I switched to royal purple 5W-30 during the winter, and 5W-40 for summer. The sound is again coming from cylinder #8, which was the same lifter that was destroyed with the first failure. I will likely switch back to Redline 5W-30 and hope the noise will lesson. I wish I had purchased the non-oiled Johnson Lifters which might have lasted longer than the engine itself. LOL I came across a great article by a former Air Force Metals Tech expert, who now works for a specific custom oil company. This individual analyzed some 120 failed cams and lifters to see if science could determine the cause of failure. His studies indicated the lifters to be the problem, combined with insufficient lubrication. The low-weighted engine oils used by Chrysler do not apply enough film between the rollers and the cam-lobes, which leads to rollers rotating at high RPM speeds. This in turn leads to roller needle bearing failure and/or complete seizure of the roller. Next is time and pressure, after which the roller will have wiped out the cam-lobe leaving excessive debris throughout the engine. His solution was to use a high molly and zink oil with a weight of about 7.5w-30. I do not feel like tearing back into the Hemi engine. So I've decided to dump the stupid thing and buy a better truck..probably a Toyota Tundra since most of the folks I know personally have had well over 300,000 miles on theirs and still runs like new. I also have a 2003 Chevy Tahoe with currently 329,000 miles and the engine still runs and pulls great. However, the transmission did give out and I ended up having to replace the 4L60e transmission. Another note by the Metals Tech was his discussion was a Chrysler engineer who stated in a letter that they intentionally designed Dodge/Chrysler engines to fail at certain intervals in order to help maintain employment for Chrysler service departments, or else force the owner to buy a newer vehicle. His words were, "we cannot build a vehicle that will last 15 years or more; doing so would reduce sells, and so we deigned the engines to last the term of the financing...." I for one believe this to be true, because all three of my Dodge vehicles (1997, 2002, 2012) have all failed shortly after paying them off full-finance term. Summary: I'm now convinced the problem is mostly related to poor lifter design. If anyone has repaired their Hemi's using Johnson Lifter, please post any updates you might have as to the longevity of life's engine after repair. JosephA
 
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~50,000 miles in ~1 year is 137 miles a day every day. That's roughly 2.5 hours of driving, every single day. 7.5w-30? crackmeup A car company "designing" engines to fail after a certain point? While yes, they do design for a certain service period, there is no way to reliably design an engine to fail shortly after the warranty period, let alone the finance period, while avoiding having to pay warranty claims. Especially considering that they not only once had an lifetime/unlimited mileage powertrain warranty straight from the factory, they also sold an lifetime/unlimited mileage straight through Mopar, for a reasonable price of <$4,000 if you opted for Maxcare, which covered everything except things like maintenance items, light bulbs, and plastic trim pieces.
 
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Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings everyone! Well after about a year of repairing my 2012 Dodge RAM Hemi, it appears the lifter failure is happening again after driving about 50,000 miles since the repair. As a reminder, here is what I did: 1. Replace camshaft to non-MDS cam made by CompCam. 2. Installed MDS plugs to stop oil flow since MDS was deactivated 3. Reprogrammed ECM to deactivate MDS 4. Installed new Hellcat lifters 5. Replace Bank2 valve-train roller-rocker rails (worn from valve loose valve lash) 6. Initially used Redline 5W-30, but due to excessive costs, I switched to royal purple 5W-30 during the winter, and 5W-40 for summer. The sound is again coming from cylinder #8, which was the same lifter that was destroyed with the first failure. I will likely switch back to Redline 5W-30 and hope the noise will lesson. I wish I had purchased the non-oiled Johnson Lifters which might have lasted longer than the engine itself. LOL I came across a great article by a former Air Force Metals Tech expert, who now works for a specific custom oil company. This individual analyzed some 120 failed cams and lifters to see if science could determine the cause of failure. His studies indicated the lifters to be the problem, combined with insufficient lubrication. The low-weighted engine oils used by Chrysler do not apply enough film between the rollers and the cam-lobes, which leads to rollers rotating at high RPM speeds. This in turn leads to roller needle bearing failure and/or complete seizure of the roller. Next is time and pressure, after which the roller will have wiped out the cam-lobe leaving excessive debris throughout the engine. His solution was to use a high molly and zink oil with a weight of about 7.5w-30. I do not feel like tearing back into the Hemi engine. So I've decided to dump the stupid thing and buy a better truck..probably a Toyota Tundra since most of the folks I know personally have had well over 300,000 miles on theirs and still runs like new. I also have a 2003 Chevy Tahoe with currently 329,000 miles and the engine still runs and pulls great. However, the transmission did give out and I ended up having to replace the 4L60e transmission. Another note by the Metals Tech was his discussion was a Chrysler engineer who stated in a letter that they intentionally designed Dodge/Chrysler engines to fail at certain intervals in order to help maintain employment for Chrysler service departments, or else force the owner to buy a newer vehicle. His words were, "we cannot build a vehicle that will last 15 years or more; doing so would reduce sells, and so we deigned the engines to last the term of the financing...." I for one believe this to be true, because all three of my Dodge vehicles (1997, 2002, 2012) have all failed shortly after paying them off full-finance term. Summary: I'm now convinced the problem is mostly related to poor lifter design. If anyone has repaired their Hemi's using Johnson Lifter, please post any updates you might have as to the longevity of life's engine after repair. JosephA
So you went against engineers and redesigned engine with eliminated PCM program then used a heavier (although slightly) oil than recommended and it prematurely failed. HMM Nowhere did you state block was checked or spring pressure. Sounds like parts thrown at it and hoping for the best. Sorry it didn't work out
 
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Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings everyone! Well after about a year of repairing my 2012 Dodge RAM Hemi, it appears the lifter failure is happening again after driving about 50,000 miles since the repair. As a reminder, here is what I did: 1. Replace camshaft to non-MDS cam made by CompCam. 2. Installed MDS plugs to stop oil flow since MDS was deactivated 3. Reprogrammed ECM to deactivate MDS 4. Installed new Hellcat lifters 5. Replace Bank2 valve-train roller-rocker rails (worn from valve loose valve lash) 6. Initially used Redline 5W-30, but due to excessive costs, I switched to royal purple 5W-30 during the winter, and 5W-40 for summer. The sound is again coming from cylinder #8, which was the same lifter that was destroyed with the first failure. I will likely switch back to Redline 5W-30 and hope the noise will lesson. I wish I had purchased the non-oiled Johnson Lifters which might have lasted longer than the engine itself. LOL
Joseph, nice to hear from you again, it's unfortunate that it appears that it may be under less than great circumstances however. If indeed the issue has returned, I think we can safely conclude that you've confirmed that it has nothing to do with the MDS, since you no longer have it. What kind of prep/clean-up did you do on the lifter bores that had the damaged lifters in them if you don't mind me asking?
Originally Posted by JosephA
I came across a great article by a former Air Force Metals Tech expert, who now works for a specific custom oil company. This individual analyzed some 120 failed cams and lifters to see if science could determine the cause of failure. His studies indicated the lifters to be the problem, combined with insufficient lubrication. The low-weighted engine oils used by Chrysler do not apply enough film between the rollers and the cam-lobes, which leads to rollers rotating at high RPM speeds. This in turn leads to roller needle bearing failure and/or complete seizure of the roller. Next is time and pressure, after which the roller will have wiped out the cam-lobe leaving excessive debris throughout the engine. His solution was to use a high molly and zink oil with a weight of about 7.5w-30.
I believe you may be talking about the article mentioned here: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5452840/1 My takeaway:
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The letter is an interesting read, the guy hawing a made-up grade (7.5W-40) with a billion ppm of ZDDP? Not so much. The conclusion that the lubricant is inadequate doesn't make sense, given that as he noted, the valve spring pressure isn't overly high and it isn't a solid roller racing engine. Guys have experienced the issue even on engines run on much heavier additized oil, like M1 0w-40 for example. I questioned, in one of the other extensive threads on this topic, whether the spring pressure was actually becoming inadequate once the engines got some miles on them, allowing valve float, damaging the rollers, causing them to spall the lobes and eventually lock up. Roller motors are not supposed to have lofty oil AW requirements, that was one of the reasons they were introduced. Per the analysis, something is causing the rollers to skid, spall, and eventually lock up and it isn't a lack of lubrication. It could be valve float, defective needle bearings in the rollers or insufficient lifter alignment control, allowing the rollers to scrub due to the body rotating. In any instance, a production street engine with a pretty mild cam shouldn't require Top Fuel levels of AW additives just to keep a cam in it. Given that most of the failures are 2015 and earlier and the lifter part #'s changing multiple times at this point, I expect FCA has/had a pretty good handle on the cause, as did/does GM, who experienced a nary identical issue with their AFM engines.
Originally Posted by JosephA
I do not feel like tearing back into the Hemi engine. So I've decided to dump the stupid thing and buy a better truck..probably a Toyota Tundra since most of the folks I know personally have had well over 300,000 miles on theirs and still runs like new. I also have a 2003 Chevy Tahoe with currently 329,000 miles and the engine still runs and pulls great. However, the transmission did give out and I ended up having to replace the 4L60e transmission.
In your shoes, I'd be soured and looking to replace with something else as well.
Originally Posted by JosephA
Another note by the Metals Tech was his discussion was a Chrysler engineer who stated in a letter that they intentionally designed Dodge/Chrysler engines to fail at certain intervals in order to help maintain employment for Chrysler service departments, or else force the owner to buy a newer vehicle. His words were, "we cannot build a vehicle that will last 15 years or more; doing so would reduce sells, and so we deigned the engines to last the term of the financing...." I for one believe this to be true, because all three of my Dodge vehicles (1997, 2002, 2012) have all failed shortly after paying them off full-finance term.
That doesn't make sense though, as there are millions of these vehicles/engines out there that don't experience the issue over their lifetime. Also, the multiple updates to the lifter part #'s certainly indicates that FCA is aware of isolated failures and working with the supplier to try and eliminate the issue.
Originally Posted by JosephA
Summary: I'm now convinced the problem is mostly related to poor lifter design. If anyone has repaired their Hemi's using Johnson Lifter, please post any updates you might have as to the longevity of life's engine after repair. JosephA
Yes, that's my position as well, that it is lifter related, just like with the GM AFM engines. Whether it's exclusive to the lifters themselves, or there is a trigger like weak valve springs and valve float? Would be interesting to know.
 
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Quote
~50,000 miles in ~1 year is 137 miles a day every day. That's roughly 2.5 hours of driving, every single day. 7.5w-30? crackmeup A car company "designing" engines to fail after a certain point? While yes, they do design for a certain service period, there is no way to reliably design an engine to fail shortly after the warranty period, let alone the finance period, while avoiding having to pay warranty claims. Especially considering that they not only once had an lifetime/unlimited mileage powertrain warranty straight from the factory, they also sold an lifetime/unlimited mileage straight through Mopar, for a reasonable price of <$4,000 if you opted for Maxcare, which covered everything except things like maintenance items, light bulbs, and plastic trim pieces.
That is a fair opinion. But those words were not by me of course. I was merely repeating what a metals-tech expert claimed after having a discussion with a so-called, "Chrysler Engineer". However, the idea of designing cars to fail a certain time period is not new. In fact laws were passed to prohibit such conduct. At any rate, considering the fact that I have owned dozens of vehicles over my lifetime, the only vehicle brand that has failed me all three times was Chrysler. A 1997 Dodge Stratus that lost a head gasket on its poorly designed 2.4 liter engine (also happening to thousands of 2.0 liters on the neons, avengers, sebrings, etc); a 2002 Dodge Stratus with the 2.7 water pump/timing chain issues which also failed 6 months after payoff (twice within a year), and now a 2012 Dodge RAM that failed slightly above 100,000 miles. The only car to exceed 120,000 miles before failure was the 2002 Stratus. Yet I have owned Nissans, Chevy's, and Toyota's, and all of those vehicles (other than Mopar) lasted well over 300,000 miles before I eventually sold or traded them. I haven't had a single Dodge exceed the 200,000 miles mark, despite religious oil changes. Dodge has not built a good long lasting vehicle since the 1970's, with the exception of the older RAMS on up to the 1990's (prior to the Hemi). 90's RAM pickups were not that bad, with the 5.9 Magnum which was a fairly reliable engine. And the original Hemi's were not that bad, save a few that had valve-seat failures, and coolant issues. Ford has put out some good vehicles, and especially now with the ecoboost. But as for any Dodge vehicle these days, I will not be wasting another penny on their machines that require extensive maintenance and yet still has a high tendency to fail. So far, 4 of my friends have lost their RAMS due to lifter issues; one of them just lost both of his RAMS for the very same reason despite the dealership performing his routine oil changes. Joe
 
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