Quick Lube used an undersized filter.
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Downsize/consolidation of filters been SOP at quick lubes and some indies for quite awhile now. Just a $$$$ saving practice for the business. Not my favorite practice, but likely makes no difference in a regularly maintained vehicle.
That said, normally 3614 not downsized in my observation. So you could be right about just out of the 3614 and used an alternative. Could have been worse, they could have used the shorty 4967 instead of the 4386.
So you put on a Napa Gold 1348. Running one two ocis now on a Tacoma not seeing many annual miles.
That said, normally 3614 not downsized in my observation. So you could be right about just out of the 3614 and used an alternative. Could have been worse, they could have used the shorty 4967 instead of the 4386.
So you put on a Napa Gold 1348. Running one two ocis now on a Tacoma not seeing many annual miles.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Having lunch yesterday - next table had some 60ish guys arguing over OCI - one of four used OLM & M1 - other 3 were 3k on quick lube bulk and would go to their graves clinging to that ...
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters. What if they put in sub-spec oil?
"Well all oil is so good these days it really won't matter....."
"Well all oil is so good these days it really won't matter....."
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters. What if they put in sub-spec oil?
What is the required specification that isn't being met by that filter?
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters. What if they put in sub-spec oil?
What is the required specification that isn't being met by that filter?
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
This is BITOG-where guys change out fluids on new cars. They would think a wrong/undersized filter is a apocalypse (disaster).
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
This is BITOG-where guys change out fluids on new cars. They would think a wrong/undersized filter is a apocalypse (disaster).
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AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
No, they'd have to prove to me the undersize filter has the same specs as the correct filter. With something besides a corporate fit chart.
Defending the places we love to hate, who'da thought?
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
No, they'd have to prove to me the undersize filter has the same specs as the correct filter. With something besides a corporate fit chart.
Defending the places we love to hate, who'da thought?
I wouldn't be too concerned. A healthy engine that sees regular service has little that needs to be filtered out.
Oil filters have been getting smaller for years now, at least those specified by OEMs.
The correct filter for our '09 Forester is a demitasse cup size and that for our '12 Accord or '17 Forester is a little larger but still looks tiny while those for our older cars look positively huge.
I put an FL1A on our Focus this time around, but only because I had it and the gasket diameter and bypass setting is fine for the engine. It physically fits the available space without a whole lot of room to spare so it may be a real treat to remove.
I'd not worry at all about a smaller than stock oil filter.
Oil filters have been getting smaller for years now, at least those specified by OEMs.
The correct filter for our '09 Forester is a demitasse cup size and that for our '12 Accord or '17 Forester is a little larger but still looks tiny while those for our older cars look positively huge.
I put an FL1A on our Focus this time around, but only because I had it and the gasket diameter and bypass setting is fine for the engine. It physically fits the available space without a whole lot of room to spare so it may be a real treat to remove.
I'd not worry at all about a smaller than stock oil filter.
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters. What if they put in sub-spec oil?
"Well all oil is so good these days it really won't matter....."
Champ (supplier of quick lube filters) puts this verbage on the package: "Warranty Engine and vehicle manufacturers' warranties are unaffected by the use of Champ filters."
The implication the filter meets or exceeds warranty requirements.
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters. What if they put in sub-spec oil?
"Well all oil is so good these days it really won't matter....."
Champ (supplier of quick lube filters) puts this verbage on the package: "Warranty Engine and vehicle manufacturers' warranties are unaffected by the use of Champ filters."
The implication the filter meets or exceeds warranty requirements.
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
No, they'd have to prove to me the undersize filter has the same specs as the correct filter. With something besides a corporate fit chart.
Defending the places we love to hate, who'da thought?
I don't defend Walmart. I just give the public information about what is going on in the TLE. Believe it or not I have been apart of BITOG before I went to work at Walmart.
I'm sure the Fram Cores are fine. But I wouldn't run them pass 3k. Maybe I should bring some home sometime and start posting.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Pretty amazing that BITOG is defending using sub-spec oil filters.
That's a stretch. You have to prove that the flow rates are inadequate, or the holding capacity is inadequate.
You'd also have to PROVE that some harm is being done, in some way.
No, they'd have to prove to me the undersize filter has the same specs as the correct filter. With something besides a corporate fit chart.
Defending the places we love to hate, who'da thought?
I don't defend Walmart. I just give the public information about what is going on in the TLE. Believe it or not I have been apart of BITOG before I went to work at Walmart.
I'm sure the Fram Cores are fine. But I wouldn't run them pass 3k. Maybe I should bring some home sometime and start posting.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
A small filter is going to be more restrictive, operate at higher backpressure, bypass more often and provide less cooling. These issues compound as it plugs up.
- How is a smaller filter "more restrictive" Can you be specific? Do you know the dP of the normal filter and this little filter?
- How is it operating at more "backpressure"? (same as above)
- And it bypasses more often? Really? And the BP event counter is installed on the filter, or the dashboard? (Given that Jim Allen's data shows BP is a RARE event, I think this is patently false).
- Less cooling? fractionally, perhaps, but then again, it's also less lost heat energy (warmer oil) in winter, so take that!
- "as it plugs up"? Generally it's accepted that as filters load up they become more efficient; you find that unattractive? I SERIOUSLY doubt this filter came anywhere close to blinding off, though, as you I take your implication.
If you want to stand by your statement, and you have every right to do so, then please bring some substantiation (real data = proof) to the equation if possible. Show me some data where you ran the same engine with data tracking dP devices (such as what Jim Allen did), tested multiple filter options, and discovered the statistical proof, and share with all, please.
I am not saying this little Focus was treated for the better by having the smaller filter, but for goodness sake, let's not claim the sky if falling!
A small filter is going to be more restrictive, operate at higher backpressure, bypass more often and provide less cooling. These issues compound as it plugs up.
- How is a smaller filter "more restrictive" Can you be specific? Do you know the dP of the normal filter and this little filter?
- How is it operating at more "backpressure"? (same as above)
- And it bypasses more often? Really? And the BP event counter is installed on the filter, or the dashboard? (Given that Jim Allen's data shows BP is a RARE event, I think this is patently false).
- Less cooling? fractionally, perhaps, but then again, it's also less lost heat energy (warmer oil) in winter, so take that!
- "as it plugs up"? Generally it's accepted that as filters load up they become more efficient; you find that unattractive? I SERIOUSLY doubt this filter came anywhere close to blinding off, though, as you I take your implication.
If you want to stand by your statement, and you have every right to do so, then please bring some substantiation (real data = proof) to the equation if possible. Show me some data where you ran the same engine with data tracking dP devices (such as what Jim Allen did), tested multiple filter options, and discovered the statistical proof, and share with all, please.
I am not saying this little Focus was treated for the better by having the smaller filter, but for goodness sake, let's not claim the sky if falling!
Originally Posted By: FordBroncoVWJeta
I don't defend Walmart. I just give the public information about what is going on in the TLE. Believe it or not I have been apart of BITOG before I went to work at Walmart.
I'm sure the Fram Cores are fine. But I wouldn't run them pass 3k. Maybe I should bring some home sometime and start posting.
That would be cool. Do one at 3K, one at 6K and one at 9K or some values close.
I don't defend Walmart. I just give the public information about what is going on in the TLE. Believe it or not I have been apart of BITOG before I went to work at Walmart.
I'm sure the Fram Cores are fine. But I wouldn't run them pass 3k. Maybe I should bring some home sometime and start posting.
That would be cool. Do one at 3K, one at 6K and one at 9K or some values close.
Filter size notwithstanding, I personally wouldn't be satisfied at the accepted practice of shortcutting just to save on overhead, especially in a high turnover business like a quick lube. Just stock the right filters. It's not a rare car or engine, it's a mainstream Ford Focus with an even more mainstream engine, why not carry the right filter for it? Is saving an ounce or two of oil under the specified fill volume really saving them that much? Would the customer authorize that if they were made aware?
It is all about money. It would be interesting to note how many filter / oil upgrades are sold as a percent.
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Originally Posted By: WellOiled
It is all about money. It would be interesting to note how many filter / oil upgrades are sold as a percent.
At Walmart almost zero oil filter upgrades. Only time is if customer requests it or like today I pulled a M1 filter off a corvette and I asked him if he wanted a M1 or the Fram. Since he probably wanted a m1.
Oil wise, most people go conventional unless it a newer car or its a 0w-20 then they use synthetic.
It is all about money. It would be interesting to note how many filter / oil upgrades are sold as a percent.
At Walmart almost zero oil filter upgrades. Only time is if customer requests it or like today I pulled a M1 filter off a corvette and I asked him if he wanted a M1 or the Fram. Since he probably wanted a m1.
Oil wise, most people go conventional unless it a newer car or its a 0w-20 then they use synthetic.
There is no excuse for any place that does oil changes as it's business to use a filter that isn't spec'd for a particular vehicle by the filter manufacturer. Size has nothing to do with it. If it isn't spec'd then the warranty coverage is totally out the window.
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
There is no excuse for any place that does oil changes as it's business to use a filter that isn't spec'd for a particular vehicle by the filter manufacturer. Size has nothing to do with it. If it isn't spec'd then the warranty coverage is totally out the window.
This. My shop is relatively small in the repair shop game. Independently owned, two locations. We keep at least 30 separate PN's of canister filters and probably another 20 of cartridge filters on hand at any given time. Even going so far as to stock OEM Mopar filters for the pentastar 3.6 due to the massive amount of issues with aftermarket filters in these engines.
With proper inventory control it's not that big of a deal to keep a proper stock of OE-spec filters on hand.
There is no excuse for any place that does oil changes as it's business to use a filter that isn't spec'd for a particular vehicle by the filter manufacturer. Size has nothing to do with it. If it isn't spec'd then the warranty coverage is totally out the window.
This. My shop is relatively small in the repair shop game. Independently owned, two locations. We keep at least 30 separate PN's of canister filters and probably another 20 of cartridge filters on hand at any given time. Even going so far as to stock OEM Mopar filters for the pentastar 3.6 due to the massive amount of issues with aftermarket filters in these engines.
With proper inventory control it's not that big of a deal to keep a proper stock of OE-spec filters on hand.
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
They probably only stock 6 filters to fit everything.....
What I find is ironic is that some of these quick lubes would make someone sign waivers to put a 5w-30 in a 0w-20 Honda, yet have no qualms whatsoever at using the 51358 equivalent instead of the specified 57357 equivalent, simply to consolidate filter inventory. If I want to use different sized filters, and sometimes I happen to do so, that's on me, but I don't like that being thrust upon the unsuspecting.
My buddy's Audi had a very undersized filter. Changing the filter on that vehicle with the normal sized filter is a royal pain, though.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I think the nomenclature "Filter was Smaller than the OEM" NOT undersized. We tend to get our minds a little twisted when we overthink these things.
This is how I look at it, and this is coming from someone who isn't afraid to switch things up. Is the filter specified for the vehicle in question by the filter manufacturer, in their application guide? It's a yes or no answer. It's either the specified filter, or it is not. Like CapitalTruck notes, if you want the oil filter manufacturer to stand behind the product, it had better be the correct part number for the vehicle in question. I'm not afraid to use a 57356, 51365, or 51356 on my G37, instead of the 51358. But, Wix didn't tell me to do that (well, I could argue the 51365 and said I had an old application guide). If something goes south, I shouldn't be looking to Wix for help.
They probably only stock 6 filters to fit everything.....
What I find is ironic is that some of these quick lubes would make someone sign waivers to put a 5w-30 in a 0w-20 Honda, yet have no qualms whatsoever at using the 51358 equivalent instead of the specified 57357 equivalent, simply to consolidate filter inventory. If I want to use different sized filters, and sometimes I happen to do so, that's on me, but I don't like that being thrust upon the unsuspecting.
My buddy's Audi had a very undersized filter. Changing the filter on that vehicle with the normal sized filter is a royal pain, though.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I think the nomenclature "Filter was Smaller than the OEM" NOT undersized. We tend to get our minds a little twisted when we overthink these things.
This is how I look at it, and this is coming from someone who isn't afraid to switch things up. Is the filter specified for the vehicle in question by the filter manufacturer, in their application guide? It's a yes or no answer. It's either the specified filter, or it is not. Like CapitalTruck notes, if you want the oil filter manufacturer to stand behind the product, it had better be the correct part number for the vehicle in question. I'm not afraid to use a 57356, 51365, or 51356 on my G37, instead of the 51358. But, Wix didn't tell me to do that (well, I could argue the 51365 and said I had an old application guide). If something goes south, I shouldn't be looking to Wix for help.
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