Oil recommendations: 335d - DPF, EGR, SCR, Urea delete.

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Originally Posted by slipstream444
One last point before you go away edyvw (you should really just leave) - I started this post, you're a guest in it, so to suggest that by virtue of the fact some of my posts are long that I'm trolling my own post is some of the worst toddler logic I've heard. Take your sad ego and the playground bully mentality that surrounds it elsewhere please.

What makes you think I will go? You racked up 21 posts from 2011, which means that you only come here when you have question that will only serve your needs.
Now that you decided on Redline, we are expecting you in few years when you need another confirmation of your "thinking."
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Ignore actual valid points made by edy and I, and instead resort to insults and virtue signaling. Who's the mentally crippled one here? There was no conversation to keep up with in the first place, just constant insistince that you somehow need special oil... ok fine... but how can you objectively determine if an oil is "better" without scientific, repeatable tests? Please enlighten ALL of us on bitog because we would like to know.

I asked same question and no answer yet.
 
Originally Posted by slipstream444
Originally Posted by edyvw

Where did I hear this?
I have no doubts that now that you have Redline 5W40 in your one of a kind, super-duper, uber BMW 335d, you will be fastest driver in the Lower Alabama.

Pathetic, weak and sad as always edyvw.

Nope, I'm still in Afghanistan, I just woke up and about to get at it. My BMW is still in storage with the OEM LL04 oil from my last oil change still in the engine. I'll be far from the fastest driver in LA or anywhere for that matter - and that was never been my goal in the first place (what a petty asinine comment). The car is fast, definitely a lot faster than stock - and it gets better fuel economy, when I'm not driving like a wannabe street punk, perhaps like you.

If I were you, I would ask someone to change that LL-04 ASAP, otherwise engine in that unique BMW might corrode, or self destruct.
 
Look at you two go. Wow! You both can't control yourselves - at all. I wonder which one started crying first. By continuing to post you both only confirm everything I've posted.

Once again you two trolls have provided nothing to this discussion. Your tantrums only get more pathetic every time you post and you have effectively shut down the discussion with your tantrums.
 
I don't understand why you, slipstream has even come here and asked for advice when you clearly know best?


You know full well your tuned 3.0 diesel needs some special oil despite BMW having a more powerful diesel in the line-up and still specifies LL04 oil.

You know full well your tuned 3.0 diesel needs some special oil despite BMW specifying LL04 in every M-sport car currently in the line-up in the UK.

You know full well your tuned 3.0 diesel needs some special oil despite most LL04 oils coming with extra specifications like Porsche A40 which includes a simulation endurance test around the Nurbergring.

You, Slipstream obviously know best. Why come here and ask for our opinions?
 
Oh my. It never ends.
Actually, there have been several posts that have been useful and that I used to determine the direction I needed to go.
Those do not include posts that stated there was nothing wrong with LL04 oil because it's used in more powerful cars (as in cars that were designed to run that oil while producing much higher factory power levels) which have absolutely nothing to do with my application. A car like the M550d is a much more advanced car, uses a completely different engine and just because a car such as that can use the oil at those power levels does not mean my car can continue to use that oil at those same power levels. To use that as your argument, or to leverage cars that are completely different in design and specifications as your argument for saying the oil should be fine in my car is pure toddler logic that is not based in fact, science, or experience. What is a fact is my car was not designed to produce the power it now does and to assume the same oil is now capable of keeping the crank from chewing up the bearings based on the fact you read that another car produces more power is idiotic and grounded in nothing but speculation at best. It's like stating that since the Civic type R uses 0W20 oil, it should be fine in a turbocharged S2000 right? NO. Not even in a stock S2000. Even though the engine in the type R is directly based on the S2000's 2.0l F series engine (it's a K series derivative) they are completely different engines. The S2000 engine's bearings would not last long.
 
Newer and more advanced engines that use oils like LL04 spec oils at high power output levels are not just a souped up older engine designs. Manufacturers like BMW, Audi, Porsche etc spend MILLIONS of dollars designing and perfecting newer and more powerful engine designs. BMW didn't just take the engine out of a 2011 335d and strap more turbos on it to make more power and stuffed it in a $100,000 5 series and called it good. That engine is completely different - and designed to run at those power levels with a low viscosity oil for better efficiency. It doesn't mean the oil is good for any car that produces that much power. That kind of suggestion has no basis in fact - and to recommend someone use that oil in an unproven application without proving WHY the oil is sufficient can actually set yourself up for liability. Be careful what you recommend, and make sure your recommendations are based on fact and not loose conjecture.
 
Originally Posted by slipstream444
Oh my. It never ends.
Actually, there have been several posts that have been useful and that I used to determine the direction I needed to go.
Those do not include posts that stated there was nothing wrong with LL04 oil because it's used in more powerful cars (as in cars that were designed to run that oil while producing much higher factory power levels) which have absolutely nothing to do with my application. A car like the M550d is a much more advanced car, uses a completely different engine and just because a car such as that can use the oil at those power levels does not mean my car can continue to use that oil at those same power levels. To use that as your argument, or to leverage cars that are completely different in design and specifications as your argument for saying the oil should be fine in my car is pure toddler logic that is not based in fact, science, or experience. What is a fact is my car was not designed to produce the power it now does and to assume the same oil is now capable of keeping the crank from chewing up the bearings based on the fact you read that another car produces more power is idiotic and grounded in nothing but speculation at best. It's like stating that since the Civic type R uses 0W20 oil, it should be fine in a turbocharged S2000 right? NO. Not even in a stock S2000. Even though the engine in the type R is directly based on the S2000's 2.0l F series engine (it's a K series derivative) they are completely different engines. The S2000 engine's bearings would not last long.



You need to locate the bearing clearances for both engines to determine if there is a difference between your stock M57D30TÜ2 and the N57S. The fact remains that for both engine families LL04 from 0w30 - 5w40 has been spec'd across the board. FYI..Both engines at max power had same bore/stroke (3.0 liter) I6 and the N57 uses the same crank/bearings regardless of power level.

Remember you just added a tune and left the internals unchanged.

Perhaps you should offer a justification for using something outside LL04 other than "just because"? Clearly this is your first experience with BMW.
 
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Originally Posted by slipstream444
Newer and more advanced engines that use oils like LL04 spec oils at high power output levels are not just a souped up older engine designs. Manufacturers like BMW, Audi, Porsche etc spend MILLIONS of dollars designing and perfecting newer and more powerful engine designs. BMW didn't just take the engine out of a 2011 335d and strap more turbos on it to make more power and stuffed it in a $100,000 5 series and called it good. That engine is completely different - and designed to run at those power levels with a low viscosity oil for better efficiency. It doesn't mean the oil is good for any car that produces that much power. That kind of suggestion has no basis in fact - and to recommend someone use that oil in an unproven application without proving WHY the oil is sufficient can actually set yourself up for liability. Be careful what you recommend, and make sure your recommendations are based on fact and not loose conjecture.


The N57 is lighter than the M57. Off the top of my head that's really the only difference when it comes to the internals. Both power plants are sold at essentially the same power levels. (Ex In the U.S. the N57 makes a tad less hp/more torque than the M57 it replaced.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by slipstream444
Newer and more advanced engines that use oils like LL04 spec oils at high power output levels are not just a souped up older engine designs. Manufacturers like BMW, Audi, Porsche etc spend MILLIONS of dollars designing and perfecting newer and more powerful engine designs. BMW didn't just take the engine out of a 2011 335d and strap more turbos on it to make more power and stuffed it in a $100,000 5 series and called it good. That engine is completely different - and designed to run at those power levels with a low viscosity oil for better efficiency. It doesn't mean the oil is good for any car that produces that much power. That kind of suggestion has no basis in fact - and to recommend someone use that oil in an unproven application without proving WHY the oil is sufficient can actually set yourself up for liability. Be careful what you recommend, and make sure your recommendations are based on fact and not loose conjecture.


The N57 is lighter than the M57. Off the top of my head that's really the only difference when it comes to the internals. Both power plants are sold at essentially the same power levels. (Ex In the U.S. the N57 makes a tad less hp/more torque than the M57 it replaced.

There are some differences, but not related to whether LL04 should be used or not.
N57 first and foremost has more advanced CR system. Block is bit lighter and does not have for example oil dipstick (that is related to emission stuff not only cost saving by not putting dipstick).
But generally, due to compression ratio internally there are very few if any differences between M57 and N57.
Actually his tuned 335d should have easier time since he got rid of SCR system and DPF. He is not taking into consideration that with such heavy oil his oil temperature will go up and that it will take longer to cool off that same oil. As Doug would say: as thin as possible as thick as necessary. I highly doubt our friend ever read that.
 
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Originally Posted by edyvw
As Doug would say: as thin as possible as thick as necessary. I highly doubt our friend ever read that.

Actually edyvw, if you read some of my earlier posts that defined what I was looking for will see I have been looking for the lowest viscosity oil with the highest HTHS available, unencumbered by limitations produced by considerations and resultant formulation of LL04 specs. All of the LL04 fan club who chimed in (including you), jumped on board attacking that goal as if somehow that was a slight of the oil. It wasn't. What it was is the realization that the spec does produce limitations based on chemistry designed to protect the expensive emissions systems on modern diesels (and soon on gas engines as well). It doesn't mean the oil is bad or inferior to similar but older spec oils, but highlights the fact that chemistry does not come cheaply and as such, presents some limitations due to cost. I have not found a 5W40 oil with a published HTHS greater than the Redline offering which lists a 4.4cP. There is no LL04 spec oil that I have found that comes close to that number. Again - I'm an Amsoil dealer and none of their diesel (or gas) oils up to a 5W40 have a published HTHS that high, and all of the other published specs for the Redline 5W40 are within grade (in other words, it's not a 20W50 dressed up as a 5W40).

One of the ways an engine can overcome some film strength limitations is by running higher oil pressures, and by increasing the volume of oil moved at given power levels and RPMs. The advent of variable displacement oil pumps to support some of the earlier variable valve timing systems also gave manufacturers a way to address other oil issues associated with running lower viscosity oils in higher output engines.

From what I understand, the M57 is not fitted with the same oil pump as the more modern N57, but I don't know the spec differences between the two oil pumps. I know that there are several significant differences between the engines based on discussions with the company that modified my car. The N57 is more difficult to modify for several reasons, and the process to delete the emissions system on the N57 is more involved and more expensive (I'm looking into buying an X5d and asked them which years are better suited for modification - they modify both, and emphatically recommended the M57 fitted X5 - 2013 and earlier). They recommend running Shell T6 5w40 in modified engines. The Redline oil looks better on paper and is only marginally more expensive.

The bottom line is this: if you modified your car and that modification allowed you to run any modern diesel oil available, wouldn't you weigh all your options and pick the oil that provided the greatest protection possible? And by that - I mean protecting the parts of the engine that would see the greatest increase in wear due to significantly increased torque? Absolutely. And the Redline 5W40 is the best on paper option I've seen - and most certainly for the price. Again, not one LL04 advocate has presented an oil that meets that spec and has a HTHS near the 4.4cP the Redline oil offers. I think the best LL04 HTHS # I've seen is 3.8 for a 0W40. Even the Redline LL01 spec 0W40 is published as a 4.0cP oil. And again - given no limitations to oil selection, wouldn't you chose the less expensive oil with the higher HTHS? That is a no brainer.
 
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Originally Posted by slipstream444
Originally Posted by edyvw
As Doug would say: as thin as possible as thick as necessary. I highly doubt our friend ever read that.

Actually edyvw, if you read some of my earlier posts that defined what I was looking for will see I have been looking for the lowest viscosity oil with the highest HTHS available, unencumbered by limitations produced by considerations and resultant formulation of LL04 specs. All of the LL04 fan club who chimed in (including you), jumped on board attacking that goal as if somehow that was a slight of the oil. It wasn't. What it was is the realization that the spec does produce limitations based on chemistry designed to protect the expensive emissions systems on modern diesels (and soon on gas engines as well). It doesn't mean the oil is bad or inferior to similar but older spec oils, but highlights the fact that chemistry does not come cheaply and as such, presents some limitations due to cost. I have not found a 5W40 oil with a published HTHS greater than the Redline offering which lists a 4.4cP. There is no LL04 spec oil that I have found that comes close to that number. Again - I'm an Amsoil dealer and none of their diesel (or gas) oils up to a 5W40 have a published HTHS that high, and all of the other published specs for the Redline 5W40 are within grade (in other words, it's not a 20W50 dressed up as a 5W40).

One of the ways an engine can overcome some film strength limitations is by running higher oil pressures, and by increasing the volume of oil moved at given power levels and RPMs. The advent of variable displacement oil pumps to support some of the earlier variable valve timing systems also gave manufacturers a way to address other oil issues associated with running lower viscosity oils in higher output engines.

From what I understand, the M57 is not fitted with the same oil pump as the more modern N57, but I don't know the spec differences between the two oil pumps. I know that there are several significant differences between the engines based on discussions with the company that modified my car. The N57 is more difficult to modify for several reasons, and the process to delete the emissions system on the N57 is more involved and more expensive (I'm looking into buying an X5d and asked them which years are better suited for modification - they modify both, and emphatically recommended the M57 fitted X5 - 2013 and earlier). They recommend running Shell T6 5w40 in modified engines. The Redline oil looks better on paper and is only marginally more expensive.

The bottom line is this: if you modified your car and that modification allowed you to run any modern diesel oil available, wouldn't you weigh all your options and pick the oil that provided the greatest protection possible? And by that - I mean protecting the parts of the engine that would see the greatest increase in wear due to significantly increased torque? Absolutely. And the Redline 5W40 is the best on paper option I've seen - and most certainly for the price. Again, not one LL04 advocate has presented an oil that meets that spec and has a HTHS near the 4.4cP the Redline oil offers. I think the best LL04 HTHS # I've seen is 3.8 for a 0W40. Even the Redline LL01 spec 0W40 is published as a 4.0cP oil. And again - given no limitations to oil selection, wouldn't you chose the less expensive oil with the higher HTHS? That is a no brainer.

You wanted highest HTHS and lowest viscosity so you got oil with kinematic viscosity of 15.4?
First of all, your BMW even if it needs thicker oil (I do not want to say that Redline is better then some LL04, bcs it is not, regardless what Redline claims, and they claim all kind of stuff until they decided to develop oil for approval and they offered mediocre product) you are not nor you will expose your BMW to conditions for which is made, and that is autobahn. As far as I remember, and I have spent a lot of time in LA area, local sheriffs and state patrol are not that forgiving.
You can run whatever you want, it is your car in the end of the day, and it will not explode with LL04 or with Redline 5W40, but in your case I would be more concerned with transmission then engine.
In the end of the day, there are reasons why there are approvals. Approvals are not easy to obtain and they are not expensive at all to get. What si expensive s developing of certain oil. Personally, I would rather run Amsoil 5W40 that is LL04 approved then Redline, and I am no fan of Amsoil nor I ever used it. But, Amsoil did due diligence and developed pretty stout package.
Take also into consideration how many tuned BMW diesels are in Europe, but because over there taking down DPF is not an option they all run on LL04. And they run on much, much faster roads.
 
Slipstream, HTHS IS viscosity. And it's really the only one that matters. Kinematic 100C viscosity is irrelevant inside an engine, as it is not a measure of an oil's lubrication ability under load (bearings, rings, etc.).

Regarding your "bottom line" note, you still have not explained how you plan on determine how an oil is better than another. Redline is good stuff, but you can't objectively say it's better than an oil that's been tested rigorously to obtain LL-0x approval. LL-04/01 will not have a HTHS over 3.9 because incorporated in the testing suite is a fuel economy test. However, more HTHS does not always equal more protection.

The bottom line is that approvals are important and there for a reason: they take the guess work and marketing out of the equation.
 
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Originally Posted by CleverUserName
Does this engine use a water cooled turbo? I assume so, as most modern vehicles do. However some do not which is why I'm asking.


I don't remember but I believe so since this model had an aux radiator for coolant.
 
Check out Schaeffers 10w-30 Ultra Performance CK-4 Oil. It is ; ACEA E7-12; ACEA E9-12 Approved. Has a HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 and a Flash Point of 466F. here are the links-

Oil-http://www.schaefferoil.com/722-ultra.html
Technical Data Sheet-http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/298-722-td.pdf

SynShieldâ„¢ Ultra Performance SAE 10W-30 meets and exceeds the following manufacturers'
specifications and requirements: API Service Classifications CK-4/CJ-4; Military Specification MIL-PRF2104K;
ACEA E7-12; ACEA E9-12; Global Specification DHD-1; Caterpillar ECF-3; Cummins CES 20081,
CES 20086; Detroit Diesel Power Guard Oil Specifications: DDC93K218 and DDC93K222; Deutz DQC
III-10 LA; Ford WSS-M2C171-E, WSS-M2C171-F1; JASO DH-2; Mack EO-O Premium Plus, Mack EOS4.5;
MAN 3275, MAN 3575; MB 228.31; MTU 2.1; Renault VI RLD-3, RLD-4; Volvo VDS 4, VDS 4.5;
Navistar; John Deere; CHN (Case-New Holland).
TYPICAL PROPERTIES
SAE GRADE 10W-30
Specific Gravity @ 60ºF/15ºC .8621
Viscosity 40°C cSt (ASTM D-445) 77.39
Viscosity 100°C cSt (ASTM D-445) 11.82
Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270 147
CCS Viscosity @ -25°C cP (ASTM D-5293) 4735
Mini-rotary Viscosity-TP1 @ -30°C cP (ASTM D-4684) 14,300
High Temperature High Shear Viscosity 302°F/150°C cP (ASTM D-4683) 3.5
Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 466°/241°
Pour Point °F/°C (ASTM D-97/D-5950) -49°/-45°
Sulfated Ash Content % Wt. (ASTM D-874) 1
Total Base Number (ASTM D-2896) 10
Noack Volatility % Evaporative Loss (ASTM D-5800) 10
Shear Stability % Viscosity Loss - 90 Passes (ASTM D-7109) 9.2%
TEOST MHT (ASTM D-7097) Total Deposits, mg 20.7
 
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Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Slipstream, HTHS IS viscosity. And it's really the only one that matters. Kinematic 100C viscosity is irrelevant inside an engine, as it is not a measure of an oil's lubrication ability under load (bearings, rings, etc.).

Regarding your "bottom line" note, you still have not explained how you plan on determine how an oil is better than another. Redline is good stuff, but you can't objectively say it's better than an oil that's been tested rigorously to obtain LL-0x approval. LL-04/01 will not have a HTHS over 3.9 because incorporated in the testing suite is a fuel economy test. However, more HTHS does not always equal more protection.

The bottom line is that approvals are important and there for a reason: they take the guess work and marketing out of the equation.


HTHS is one function of viscosity and is probably the most important indicator of an oil's ability to keep rotating assemblies (under load) from making metal to metal contact with their associated bearings. All of the other measured parameters are also important - including Kinematic viscosity, as it demonstrates the oil's resistance to flow at a given temperature. As you know, oil not only provides a lubricating layer that separates moving parts under dynamic loads, it also provides primary cooling, and resistance to flow slows the cooling ability of oil. Obviously the trick is to find an oil that provides the best balance of flow, thermal conductivity characteristics, lubricity and film strength to keep things separated. All of the thermal characteristics of an oil are important factors to consider.

Approvals beyond LL01 are essentially useless in my application, unless those approvals improved the oil characteristics I was specifically targeting for my application - and there is nothing in the LL04 spec that does that. Again, it doesn't make a LL04 a bad oil in any way - there is simply no LL04 oil that provides a sufficient increase in HTHS that I am looking for in my application. JAG proposed that based on the increase in torque output that I would need a HTHS over 5.0 cP. while the formula is correct, I'm fairly certain the formula's application is intended on point torque values (at individual crank bearings for instance), not for overall torque output levels of the engine as a whole. Nevertheless, it highlights the fact that even though point torque values will not increase by over 40%, they will increase by a fraction of that amount. So then came the fundamental purpose of my query: which oil on the market provides the highest percentage increase in HTHS, while keeping the flow characteristics as close to a 5W30 as possible - unencumbered by any limitations set in the LL04 specification. I also continued my research while sifting through the responses, and adjusted my search based on some of the information provided. I also searched other forums for answers. I found that oils in the Amsoil, Mobil 1, Motul, Castrol, Shell lines only provided any a marginal increase in HTHS for 0w40 and 5W40 over their 30 weight contemporaries. I was surprised to find that Redline's 0W40 and 5W40 LL01 oils advertised significantly higher HTHS numbers while the other flow related numbers still indicated in viscosity range values. I contacted their tech services specifically about my application and they provided further information that convinced me my initial search was at an end. Again - I'm an Amsoil dealer, and have begun to lose faith in the brand as their offerings are really no better on paper than other more readily available oils. Their tech services have become even more of a disappointment as they will only abide by the specification listed by the manufacturer - and will not entertain any questions about modified engines.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


The N57 is lighter than the M57. Off the top of my head that's really the only difference when it comes to the internals. Both power plants are sold at essentially the same power levels. (Ex In the U.S. the N57 makes a tad less hp/more torque than the M57 it replaced.


The crank, pistons, bearings, oil pump assemblies, block, head, oil pan, intake manifold, injectors... all down the line for every part number I could find are different for the two motors. Some of the part numbers are somewhat close indicating an evolution (BMW is pretty good about that), and some part numbers are completely different. They are different engines.

I assure you that the N57 variant in the M550d sold in Europe has many unique internal parts that are NOT common with the US low-power variant sharing the N57 engine code.

Comparing the two engines would be like comparing the 2016 M3 engine to its 335i contemporary. Same displacement, but entirely unique powerplants.
 
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