Oil advice for a 1914 Model T

[2Slow]

Any oil will be better than what was out there in 1914.

I am trying to improve 2 specific areas:

1) Hand cranking when cold. So far the 0W-40 has done the best for this, but I am curious if other 0W oils have a lower cold viscosity. SAE30 will not be OK for easy hand cranking when cold. A lot of T's have starters, but mine doesn't, so it has to be easy to hand crank start. With the 15w-40 once it did start, it would slowly creep forward from the drag on the clutches.

2) Band chatter in reverse. I think an oil with less friction modifier like a motorcycle oil may help, but I will tolerate the chatter to have a lower cold viscosity. SAE 30 might help here, but if I can't start it, I will not have band chatter.

Thanks for the ideas.
-Joe

 

[Garak]

How cold is it being used? I suspect SAE 30 would help the band chatter, but there's only one way to find out, and to find out how bad it is for starting. I would gather that the oils used in the day were closer to an SAE 20 or 30, but there are others here far more in tune with the history of motor oils than I am.

There are other oils with better cold numbers than the 0w-40, but you may start venturing into more and more friction modification. A motorcycle oil might be a worthwhile experiment.

 

[bbhero]

Hey Garak I was thinking what you were thinking g about running a SAE 30 grade. I was even thinking that this was a rare case where a non detergent SAE 30 grade could actually be appropriate. The high detergent SAE 30 grade made by Warren Oil only has calcium, zinc and phosphorus in it. It is API SN approved. But again, this is a circumstance where a regular no detergent SAE 30 grade oil may well could work in summer time.
As far as the cold aspect goes it depends upon where at in Michigan you live. In the upper peninsula away from Lake Superior it can easily get down to -25°F in winter, with record temps well colder than that possible aka January 1985, January 1988, January 2014 etc.. In southeast Michigan it does get cold too, but not to the severity of the upper peninsula.
Given this, an 5w oil would likely be just fine in a lot of Michigan. Only a 0w would be necessary in the worst/record cold spells in the northern portion of the Michigan peninsula and in the upper Michigan peninsula.

 

[NH73]

I would stay away from non detergent oil if the engine fairly clean. Since you have already used a detergent motor oil, it seems to stay working, so I wouldn't go back to using a non detergent. This is just one of those cases where experimenting and listening to others what they have done is the order of the day. Great idea about using a 0w or 5w oil for easy hand cranking.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Hey Garak I was thinking what you were thinking g about running a SAE 30 grade. I was even thinking that this was a rare case where a non detergent SAE 30 grade could actually be appropriate. The high detergent SAE 30 grade made by Warren Oil only has calcium, zinc and phosphorus in it. It is API SN approved. But again, this is a circumstance where a regular no detergent SAE 30 grade oil may well could work in summer time.

That may very well be, too. Turtlevette, I know, has had some experience with older type seals, and I'm sure other members have, too, and that could always be an issue. Maybe they have some ideas, too. Of course, worry about seals and ND versus detergent would matter more if it were being driven a lot, so experimenting isn't quite as dangerous.

 

[FCD]

Those model T engines as 46Harry said would pretty much run on anything that was moderately oily, i would use any cheap 10W-30, SAE 30, 15W-40...

 

[Popsy]

My uncle is using Castrol or Motul sae30 in his 192x (1927 ? Not sure) T...but his has a starter motor. And I bet he's using these 2 oils because that's what he finds locally, and it's advertised for vintage cars, so

 

[2Slow]

For those that haven't hand started a car, you do not fully understand what someone means when they say something or someone is being "cranky". If you do not get it right on the first few pulls, it gets really hard.

We all agree that any modern oil is better than 1914 vintage. No argument. I am trying to protect my shoulder, any oil should be good enough for the engine. The difference between Rotella 15W - 40, 5W - 40, and M1 0W - 40 were all noticeable better for cold starting as the cold / W viscosity went down.

Model Ts have trouble achieving a "free neutral" do to drag in the trans bands and clutches. Higher cold viscosity oil makes this worse, and causes the car to creep forward after starting, or worse - stall. Jacking up the rear end eliminates the problem.

I am looking for a low viscosity oil to help with cold start / cranking. By cold I mean 50F to 90F as I do not use the car in the winter. The M1 0W-40 works pretty well for cold starts, but maybe there is something better.

I have been reading data sheets from Mobil and Castrol and it does not seem like there is a significant reduction in cold viscosity unless I go to a 0W-20, which I am considering, but 20W seems a little light. The other choice is the 5W40 motorcycle oil from Castrol which had about the same cold viscosity as the Mobil 0w-40, but might help with band chatter.

Thanks!
Joe

 

[Jetronic]

A 0W30 will have lower cold viscosity compared to Mobil1. And they're available as A3/B4 which means they're in the same class as Mobil 1 0w40 when hot.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: 2Slow
For those that haven't hand started a car, you do not fully understand what someone means when they say something or someone is being "cranky". If you do not get it right on the first few pulls, it gets really hard.

We all agree that any modern oil is better than 1914 vintage. No argument. I am trying to protect my shoulder, any oil should be good enough for the engine. The difference between Rotella 15W - 40, 5W - 40, and M1 0W - 40 were all noticeable better for cold starting as the cold / W viscosity went down.

Model Ts have trouble achieving a "free neutral" do to drag in the trans bands and clutches. Higher cold viscosity oil makes this worse, and causes the car to creep forward after starting, or worse - stall. Jacking up the rear end eliminates the problem.

I am looking for a low viscosity oil to help with cold start / cranking. By cold I mean 50F to 90F as I do not use the car in the winter. The M1 0W-40 works pretty well for cold starts, but maybe there is something better.

I have been reading data sheets from Mobil and Castrol and it does not seem like there is a significant reduction in cold viscosity unless I go to a 0W-20, which I am considering, but 20W seems a little light. The other choice is the 5W40 motorcycle oil from Castrol which had about the same cold viscosity as the Mobil 0w-40, but might help with band chatter.

Thanks!
Joe


You shouldn't necessarily just be looking at the W-number on the oil as your guide. If you are only starting in the range of 50-90F, you should be looking at the actual 40C and 100C viscosity numbers on the oil spec sheet, then plugging them into a viscosity calculator to calculate the viscosity at 50F (10C).

Here is an online viscosity calculator: http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Calculators.html

The W designations on a multivis oil don't take effect until well below freezing, so that makes them irrelevant for your usage.
My guess is that the lowest viscosity at 50F for a mass-market oil would be Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20. But I don't know enough about a Model T engine to actually recommend it. If you are already successfully using M1 0w40, maybe it would be safe to go to M1 AFE 0w30.

EDIT: Doing calculations on the Widman site, M1 0w40 would have a viscosity of 288 cSt at 50F, while AFE 0w20 would be 178. AFE 0w30 gives a disappointing result of 276, hardly any lower than the 0w40.

 

[2Slow]

A_Harman,

Thanks. That was very useful info. I did some calcs at 15C / 60F since the storage building it is in doesn't get below that temp when I start the car. It looks like M1 5W-30 is slightly lower viscosity than the 0W40 at that temp, and the 0W20 is much lower.

The Castrol 5W-40 motorcycle oil is a bit higher viscosity at that temp, so I think I will pass on it. So the choices are 5W30 or 0W20... I will probably run the 5W30 this oil change.

Thanks!

 

[steve20]

2SLOW- Model T Owner
Thanks much for posting up the Model T owner's manual. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it cover to cover.
Very surprised at the repairs they thought/expected the owner to be able to do.
Steve

PS BTW reading the manual reminded me of working on mini-bikes in the early 70's & working on the ubiquitous Snapper riding mower you see all over the place

Thanks again Bud

 

[steve20]

Joe--after reading thru all of these responses how about taking a look at Pennzoil Platinum 5-30 (or Ultra if you can find it on the shelves). It has one of the lowest cold cranking values for a 30 wt
Steve

 

[BrocLuno]

Got a couple of thoughts. #1 - I'd look for a Caterpillar TO-4 rated (shared sump) oil I think... Or at least an Allison rated oil for shared sump applications. #2 - I agree on keeping the "winter" rating as low as you are comfortable with. 5W should be doable easy enough. 0W maybe stretching things for a shared sump rated oil...

You are in MI so you're going to have actual cold winters. No Cali scenario will work for you. BUT, you could drop by the Ford Museum (one of the worlds best) and ask the maintenance crews what they use? They run Model T's for the history park taxi's all day every day and they know more about what will work well than we do by a long way

Here's the link to the Allison off-road shared sump oil list: http://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/off-highway-fluids

Only Model T's I ever worked on had an SBC, Caddy or maybe a Buick V-8 in them

 

[widman]

TO-4 oils will not be thin enough for you.

Especially after reading through that interesting manual, I'd say their reference and comments on the oil would take you to a 0W-30 or 5W-30. But probably get away from Mobil 1. From what I hear you describing, you need the wet-clutch friction, but need to avoid a drag on the cotton. The SN oils will be more slippery and probably reduce that drag, but the CJ-4 oils will work better on the wet clutch. I think I read somewhere a claim by Shell that some of their Rotella products meet MA2 specs (maybe it was just MA1).

As a side note, I was thinking about replacing the missing crank on my Renault, but it's been 59 years since I last crank-started an engine and I'd forgotten how hard it can be.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

I would get a kick out of seeing an old car run, but I really enjoy the improvements in technology over the past century or so.

 

[2Slow]

Thanks for your thoughts widman. The band chatter commes from the cotton linings engaging. From what I can tell the drag is from the clutches. It helps to leave the clutches engaged when parked and disengage shortly before cranking, as it seems to squeeze the oil out from inbetween.

I ordered some M1 5W30 from amazon and it already showed up, so that is what will go in it this year.

Joe

 

[gryffinwings]

I think the best idea you have is a motorcycle oil since you have a wet clutch and the sump is shared between the engine.

 

[benjy]

a friend with a 28 flattie stocker says the conventional rotella T 15-40 works well for him, + he puts sever thou on it yearly, well dressed of course + xtra blankets as well in cooler Pa weather! on the 30W oil real synthetic PAO + Ester oil 30W's are said to actually meet the 10W30 specs without any viscosity improvers or pour point depressants

 

[PimTac]

What would be the point of responding to a dead two year old thread?

I would also think the use of synthetic oils with pao or Ester would be ill advised in a stock 1928 Model T engine.