No filtration at all experiment.

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Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
All those VW bugs with no oil filters also got rebuilt very often, don't forget that part. I'be seen a couple of those flat-fours during a rebuild, not a pretty sight. Just run an oil filter with lowest filtration efficiency. Usually less efficiency equals more flow, and vice versa.


P.S. Wix Pro-tec oil filters come to mind. (Don'the quote me on that, but I believe the part number for our XB2 is 154MP.)
my dad put nearly 300k between 2 air cooled bugs. A 70 and a 74 he bought new. with only the stock screen for a filter. Never had and engine trouble or rebuilts. He only ran pz10w40
 
Why not just UOA your lawnmower's Briggs & Stratton? Kohler would be a no-go, because most of the riding mower/lawn tractor engines have full flow filtration.

Those test conditions will be dirtier, dustier, and likely higher load than a car will ever see... and you're not sacrificing your livelihood vehicle for the test!
 
Most lawn equipment spends its whole life without a filter and most without and oil change and they seem to be just fine. Eg: My dad has a 22 year old Tecumseh engine on his lawnmower and it has seen only a couple of oil changes in that time. It does puff some blue smoke on start-up but otherwise is fine. I think that filters do decrease wear and extend usability of engine oil but it wouldn't be catastrophic to run without a filter even for a good amount of time.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Why not just UOA your lawnmower's Briggs & Stratton?


Has anyone ever posted a UOA from one?
 
IIRC, Bob, the originator of BITOG, did an experiment on his own Mazda Miata. No Oil Filter!

I can't remember the whole article however I believe he came away with, air filtration is more important than oil filtration.

Can someone verify this or find the article in the archives?
 
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
Sacrificing thousand dollar car for a $10 parts if it is even that much?

I don't think the suggestion was to save $10 on oil filters. It's about what differences would we see in wear over a certain period of time. Of course, it's not that straightforward of an experiment to conduct, because you'd want at least two fairly identical vehicles with fairly identical operating regimes, and do tear downs to do comparisons, and it may take a while to notice anything. One would have to be cautious with methodology, too. After all, if filtration is poor or nonexistent, one shortens OCIs to compensate. When one goes long OCIs, one tries to enhance filtration. So, in such an experiment, what would we do to have a happy medium? We can't change every 1,000 miles to skew things to minimize wear for the non-filtered engine, nor do we want to be going 20,000 miles, to favour the filtered engine, running a Fram Ultra or bypass filtration, either.
 
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
IIRC, Bob, the originator of BITOG, did an experiment on his own Mazda Miata. No Oil Filter!

I can't remember the whole article however I believe he came away with, air filtration is more important than oil filtration.

Can someone verify this or find the article in the archives?


Here's all his post links. You can also search the threads he started by clicking the "Topics Created" link in the upper RH corner.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/userposts/id/2

Update, maybe this is the thread?
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...ER_O#Post215545
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
I think filters are overrated to a certain extent. I am not saying they do not offer great benefit or you should run without a filter all the time.

I am sure someplace, somewhere, someone has left the filter out of vehicle that has a cartridge oil filter and I bet the engine was just fine for 1 interval.


Engines have to be damaged/worn pretty extensively for someone to notice a change in performance. It took 80K~100K miles to wear out the old VW Bugs that only has the screen for an oil filter.


Knew folks with VW’s in college … some changed oil at 1500-2000 miles recommended by the shop who rebuilt the motor …
New oil was the “filter” of the day …
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Why not just UOA your lawnmower's Briggs & Stratton? Kohler would be a no-go, because most of the riding mower/lawn tractor engines have full flow filtration.

Those test conditions will be dirtier, dustier, and likely higher load than a car will ever see... and you're not sacrificing your livelihood vehicle for the test!


Well I wanted to do an apples to apples comparison. One OCI without filtration and one OCI with filtration. Obviously this would not be in a controlled laboratory environment, but im sure you could gather some data from it.

Mainly I was hoping for someone that has a vehicle with a canister filter and does UOAs to volunteer for the test... But i would not be opposed to trying it.

I would only do this on an engine that is broken in and in good health.

I have cut the oil filter open on our sienna after a 6k mile OCI and it was flawless, nothing trapped that was detectable to the naked eye.

Now I have cut a filter off a freshly rebuilt engine that had quite a bit of material in it, I would think running without a filter in an engine such as that could be very detrimental.
 
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
Well I wanted to do an apples to apples comparison. One OCI without filtration and one OCI with filtration. Obviously this would not be in a controlled laboratory environment, but im sure you could gather some data from it.

Mainly I was hoping for someone that has a vehicle with a canister filter and does UOAs to volunteer for the test... But i would not be opposed to trying it.

Again, what in the UOA are you looking at to determine the results of your experiment? Either way, a one-time UOA is not representative of any particular variable in the results. In the real world there is no such thing as experimental results though, far to many variables are involved none of which are controlled at all.
 
Since most OPE and all the old Bugs ran with no filtration, why is everyone so up in arms about the occasional small tear in an oil filter? All the ones seen here have been a tiny fraction of the media surface area.

(OMG, what have I done.)
28.gif
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
Well I wanted to do an apples to apples comparison. One OCI without filtration and one OCI with filtration. Obviously this would not be in a controlled laboratory environment, but im sure you could gather some data from it.

Mainly I was hoping for someone that has a vehicle with a canister filter and does UOAs to volunteer for the test... But i would not be opposed to trying it.

Again, what in the UOA are you looking at to determine the results of your experiment? Either way, a one-time UOA is not representative of any particular variable in the results. In the real world there is no such thing as experimental results though, far to many variables are involved none of which are controlled at all.


Well If we took two OCIs in which the vehicle was driven in similar patterns and compared the results, we could look at wear metals, contaminants ect..

We obvious would not be looking at moisture content, fuel dilution, viscosity, collant in oi ect... because the filter has no bearing on those.

An analytical thinker might surmise that without a filter we might see higher levels of iron ect... in the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
Well I wanted to do an apples to apples comparison. One OCI without filtration and one OCI with filtration. Obviously this would not be in a controlled laboratory environment, but im sure you could gather some data from it.

Mainly I was hoping for someone that has a vehicle with a canister filter and does UOAs to volunteer for the test... But i would not be opposed to trying it.

Again, what in the UOA are you looking at to determine the results of your experiment? Either way, a one-time UOA is not representative of any particular variable in the results. In the real world there is no such thing as experimental results though, far to many variables are involved none of which are controlled at all.


Well If we took two OCIs in which the vehicle was driven in similar patterns and compared the results, we could look at wear metals, contaminants ect..

We obvious would not be looking at moisture content, fuel dilution, viscosity, collant in oi ect... because the filter has no bearing on those.

An analytical thinker might surmise that without a filter we might see higher levels of iron ect... in the oil.

You also need an actual particle count (ie, ISO Cleanliness Code) up and beyond what a UOA gives ( ie, the UOA insoluble number).

I think the best way to do this comparison would be to start with a vehicle that already has repeatable UOA & particle count data history, then do 3 or 4 runs without a filter (same oil, driving style, OCI durations, etc) and see what changes in the UAOs & particle counts.
 
The experiment was done until the middle 1950s in the U.S.A when the full flow filters were found to double engine life and became standard for U.S vehicles.
 
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
An analytical thinker might surmise that without a filter we might see higher levels of iron ect... in the oil.

Well no, an analytical thinker would know that you have far too many uncontrolled variables in everyday driving to attribute a specific result to any one of them. There are a myriad of things that contribute to a variation in wear metals between one sample and the next. The only place any differences would show up would be in a laboratory where the only variable being changed is the filter.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The only place any differences would show up would be in a laboratory where the only variable being changed is the filter.

Or a very controlled field study like in the SAE "bus study". The bus study showed a good correlation between filter efficiency, particle size & count levels in the oil, and engine wear metal levels.

They didn't run a no filter case, but used very low to very high efficiency oil filters to compare the differences.

There was a huge discussion about all this in a thread a few months ago or so.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
... Either way, a one-time UOA is not representative of any particular variable in the results. In the real world there is no such thing as experimental results though, far to many variables are involved none of which are controlled at all.

Fwiw, I completely agree with your points and have made similar in the past. Even in a trending UOA, there are many uncontrolled variables between them to conclusively state a filter was/is the cause of any changes seen.

There have been some UOAs posted with filters that had media tears. The only remarkable thing is they were unremarkable.

Some (not I) might put more faith in in extra cost Blackstone particle counts, but even those would have other uncontrolled variables to reach a definitive conclusion of causation.

So while the "experiment" might seem like an interesting idea in theory, doubtful much of scientific value would be gleaned. Then there's the potential risks to the vehicle engine, not worth that. My .02
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool
An analytical thinker might surmise that without a filter we might see higher levels of iron ect... in the oil.

Well no, an analytical thinker would know that you have far too many uncontrolled variables in everyday driving to attribute a specific result to any one of them. There are a myriad of things that contribute to a variation in wear metals between one sample and the next. The only place any differences would show up would be in a laboratory where the only variable being changed is the filter.


Agree … and just as soon as those results get posted half of this site will cry “not real world, man”
(Use John Cadogan’s best sarcastic voice for this too)
 
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