Moly or Boron preference?

[Kalle.J]

I prefer a decent amount of both. I also prefer a higher amount of ZDDP. Just a personal preference.

You don't need high amounts of B or Zn.
Take a look at Boron doped Zinc tryglycerides for example.

Robust Interfacial Tribofilms by Borate- and Polymer-Coated ZnO Nanoparticles Leading to Improved Wear Protection under a Boundary Lubrication Regime - PubMed

This work reports on the development of borate- and methacrylate-polymer-coated zinc oxide nanoparticles (ZnOBM) via a plasma polymerization technique to replace the harmful conventional antiwear additive zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in automotive lubricants. Here, the tribochemistry...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But its more expensive to produce compared to normal Zddp.

UOA are supposed to be used with reference the VOA, not to compare add-packs of different oil.

 

[ZZman]

You don't need high amounts of B or Zn.
Take a look at Boron doped Zinc tryglycerides for example.

Robust Interfacial Tribofilms by Borate- and Polymer-Coated ZnO Nanoparticles Leading to Improved Wear Protection under a Boundary Lubrication Regime - PubMed

This work reports on the development of borate- and methacrylate-polymer-coated zinc oxide nanoparticles (ZnOBM) via a plasma polymerization technique to replace the harmful conventional antiwear additive zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in automotive lubricants. Here, the tribochemistry...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But its more expensive to produce compared to normal Zddp.

UOA are supposed to be used with reference the VOA, not to compare add-packs of different oil.

Ok, so how would you pick a "better" or "best" oil if say 6 oils meet the spec/approval?

 

[Kalle.J]

Ok, so how would you pick a "better" or "best" oil if say 6 oils meet the spec/approval?

Color of the jug and price /s

You don't. At least not without a couple of years studying. And a labratory.
Try real world test comparing VOA and UOA.
Or do as everyone else: Guess !

Edit:
Why even bother though, they are designed to be essentially "the same".
Shure some might exceed the spec, but too many trade secrets are withheld.

 

[ZZman]

Color of the jug and price /s

You don't. At least not without a couple of years studying. And a labratory.
Try real world test comparing VOA and UOA.
Or do as everyone else: Guess !

Edit:
Why even bother though, they are designed to be essentially "the same".
Shure some might exceed the spec, but too many trade secrets are withheld.

So do you have a preferred oil or whatever is on sale that meets requirements?

 

[kschachn]

So do you have a preferred oil or whatever is on sale that meets requirements?

Now you’re just trolling. Give it up.

 

[bluesubie]

How about a Castrol and a Pennzoil oil both have approvals for my vehicle. After looking at VOA's and UOA's I prefer Castrol because it appears to have more additives in it which in my mind make it better. Is my preference for it wrong, or just my personal preference? Would choosing Pennzoil be right or wrong?

I believe that the following may be an example of an additive that you cannot see.

A lubricating composition for use in the crankcase of an engine comprising (i) a base oil; (ii) one or more organo-molybdenum compounds at a level sufficient to provide from 50 to 500 ppmw of molybdenum; and (iii) from 0.2 wt% to 5 wt%, by weight of the lubricating composition, of one or more fatty diamine salt. The lubricating composition provides improvements in terms of reduced friction and wear, in addition to improved fuel economy performance.

WO2020007945A1 - Lubricating composition - Google Patents

A lubricating composition for use in the crankcase of an engine comprising (i) a base oil; (ii) one or more organo-molybdenum compounds at a level sufficient to provide from 50 to 500 ppmw of molybdenum; and (iii) from 0.2 wt% to 5 wt%, by weight of the lubricating composition, of one or more...

patents.google.com

Yet many people automatically will dismiss the Pennzoil because it doesn't appear to have high moly levels! This is where "balanced" comes into play.

Adding a much larger amount of the organo-molybdenum compound (0.9 wt%, 400ppmw) alone leads to reduced boundary and mixed friction, but using an undesirably large amount of molybdenum.

When 0.9 wt% (400 pp w) of the organo-molybdenum compound is added to Baseline oil A with 0.5 wt% of a monoamine salt (Ethomeen) , friction actually increased both in the boundary and mixed regime, near to the level of Baseline oil A.

However, when the organo-molybdenum compound at a lower level (90ppm, 0.2wt%) is combined with 0.5 wt% of a diamine salt, significant synergistic improvements in both boundary friction and mixed friction are seen.

 

[Kalle.J]

So do you have a preferred oil or whatever is on sale that meets requirements?

My Volvo does not call for MB229.5 or Porsche A40. I choose too use those specs anyway.
And yes, any oil from a known/reputable brand.

 

[ZZman]

My Volvo does not call for MB229.5 or Porsche A40. I choose too use those specs anyway.
And yes, any oil from a known/reputable brand.

Thank you

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

So I assume any approved oils would perform adequately.

The very term “approved oil” means you don’t have to make any assumptions, especially if you’re buying from a major or other reputable manufacturer.

Your equipment requires “approval A”, you buy oil that legitimately carries “approval A”, and you change it at the manufacturer’s “service recommendation”. No need for feelings, assumptions, ouija boards, or any other witchcraft. They’ve spent the money and done the testing so that the results are repeatable and reproducible. With data far greater than any $30-50 Oil Analysis can provide.

 

[ZZman]

The very term “approved oil” means you don’t have to make any assumptions, especially if you’re buying from a major or other reputable manufacturer.

Your equipment requires “approval A”, you buy oil that legitimately carries “approval A”, and you change it at the manufacturer’s “service recommendation”. No need for feelings, assumptions, ouija boards, or any other witchcraft. They’ve spent the money and done the testing so that the results are repeatable and reproducible. With data far greater than any $30-50 Oil Analysis can provide.

Yes, but if 5 oils have approval A what criteria do you personally use to pick your "go to" oil? Is it price alone? Availability? Possible base oil used? or something else?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yes, but if 5 oils have approval A what criteria do you personally use to pick your "go to" oil? Is it price alone? Availability? Possible base oil used? or something else?

Statistics have proven it doesn’t matter which one you pick. If all the oils meet the approval, with a large enough sample size, there will be no statistical difference between the oils, pretty much for any possible metric you could possibly think of.

 

[ZZman]

Statistics have proven it doesn’t matter which one you pick. If all the oils meet the approval, with a large enough sample size, there will be no statistical difference between the oils, pretty much for any possible metric you could possibly think of.

So if I understand this right oils like Amsoil, Redline, HPL are a waste/Overkill. Also any name brand oils that are more expensive then say Supertech or another good budget oil meeting specs are a waste. I will go out on a limb from what you said and say that price/value must be your preference. Not a bad choice!

 

[Kalle.J]

So if I understand this right oils like Amsoil, Redline, HPL are a waste/Overkill. Also any name brand oils that are more expensive then say Supertech or another good budget oil meeting specs are a waste. I will go out on a limb from what you said and say that price/value must be your preference. Not a bad choice!

Supertech is not a known/reputable oil manufacturer. Warren disbt. bottled oil for Walmart.
And as far as I know none of your above mentioned "premium" oil brands makes their own base oils.

But in general your statement would be true.

 

[Revving2Redline]

I prefer both .

 

[MolaKule]

Are you saying listings of the Calcium, Mag, ZDDP, Moly and Boron aren't part of the add pack?

I think you have a basic misunderstanding here.

These elements are all part of "compounds." For example, ZDDP is as ester compound that has elements of phosphorus, zinc, and sulfur. You don't usually see sulfur reported in VOA's or UOA's because it cost extra to determine and report that element.

Chemical compound: any substance consisting of atoms of two or more chemical elements.

Another compound is MoDTC or molybdenum dithiocarbamate. It is composed of carbon, hydrogen, molybdenum, nitrogen, and sulfur as the total compound. Would you base your oil preferences on an analysis (very costly btw) that showed all of these elements?

In another example, Boron reported may actually be a boronated compound of phosphorylated borate which contains at least two elements.

Compounds of moly and boron are good AW/Anti-scuff compounds but they have to added in balance to achieve a total DI additive package.

As others have stated, a VOA only provides a baseline for comparison to subsequent UOAs.

You have been a member here for 16 years and you have not learned the details about VOAs and UOAs?

 

[MolaKule]

So if I understand this right oils like Amsoil, Redline, HPL are a waste/Overkill. Also any name brand oils that are more expensive then say Supertech or another good budget oil meeting specs are a waste. I will go out on a limb from what you said and say that price/value must be your preference. Not a bad choice!

None of them are "waste." Bad selection of words. They may go beyond the OTC oils in many ways bit they are not a waste.

 

[misterjake]

Different kinds of boron require _vastly_ different amounts to achieve their goal in the add-pack.
And several of them can be substituted by other compounds. Meaningless discussion.

Trust your oil manufacturer, and specs.

I trust oil companies but their hands will be tied by government. Government and its ever increasing draconian environmental hoops force oil companies to lose out on opportunity costs which is to make the best product and dominate the market. So now, oil companies are trying to solve X even though it ignores Y as the government regulates X but consumers have to pay more because Y is ignored.

 

[ZZman]

I think you have a basic misunderstanding here.

These elements are all part of "compounds." For example, ZDDP is as ester compound that has elements of phosphorus, zinc, and sulfur. You don't usually see sulfur reported in VOA's or UOA's because it cost extra to determine and report that element.

Chemical compound: any substance consisting of atoms of two or more chemical elements.

Another compound is MoDTC or molybdenum dithiocarbamate. It is composed of carbon, hydrogen, molybdenum, nitrogen, and sulfur as the total compound. Would you base your oil preferences on an analysis (very costly btw) that showed all of these elements?

In another example, Boron reported may actually be a boronated compound of phosphorylated borate which contains at least two elements.

Compounds of moly and boron are good AW/Anti-scuff compounds but they have to added in balance to achieve a total DI additive package.

As others have stated, a VOA only provides a baseline for comparison to subsequent UOAs.

You have been a member here for 16 years and you have not learned the details about VOAs and UOAs?

Apparently I haven't.
But you would say some oils have a better balanced additive package correct?

 

[4WD]

I trust oil companies but their hands will be tied by government. Government and its ever increasing draconian environmental hoops force oil companies to lose out on opportunity costs which is to make the best product and dominate the market. So now, oil companies are trying to solve X even though it ignores Y as the government regulates X but consumers have to pay more because Y is ignored.

Y

 

[ProbeGT]

I prefer ZDDP around 1500 PPM. I pay no attention to B/Mo levels. Many lubricity tests show that high(er) levels of ZDDP lead to great reduction in wear. In this lubricity test, two Castrol oils of the same viscosity were tested for wear. The oils were identical in composition, only the levels of Zn/P (ZDDP) differed. The higher ZDDP content oil ended with 30 ppm iron in oil vs 80 for the low-ZDDP oil. That is a HUGE difference.

Quote:
"The Castrol Classic GTX basically kicked the snot out of the regular Castrol GTX."
"Way better wear protection, that's because it has more ZDDP"

I have seen no such conclusive results with B/Mo based additives. Forget B/Mo, ZDDP is king.