Modern Jet Fighters are WWII Battle Ships.

so what is the role of the F35 besides sucking up money in R@D?

Think they will ever announce what happened to the USMC F35 that flew itself into the ground in SC a few weeks ago?

Saw an F-35B at an air show - after the one in SC crashed. That thing was incredible. With all this talk about scrapping it, what's the option?

If you hear pilots talk about it, they'd rather take it into combat over anything else except maybe the F-22. Besides - what else is there other than maybe the F-15EX.
 
Saw an F-35B at an air show - after the one in SC crashed. That thing was incredible. With all this talk about scrapping it, what's the option?

If you hear pilots talk about it, they'd rather take it into combat over anything else except maybe the F-22. Besides - what else is there other than maybe the F-15EX.
well, I imagine its in the pilots own interest to say it is the best thing ever... I'm not saying to stop the program, I'm just saying they have been working on it for 20 years now and still don't seem to have a working fleet. Oh, and it was supposed to be affordable. there is always that.

Air Force has a history of this, its like the B1.. I think they pretty much retired them, and the B2 cost's so much they only use it for special duty... meanwhile they still use B52's... I believe the USAF still has 70 of them in service.. which is incredible, because that air frame has been around almost as long as the obsolete Iowa class battleship.

I guess it is like everything else... they want a Formula 1 car but need to use it as a dump truck..
 
maybe, but when was the last time we fought a peer? Russian Bear bombers
It's pretty obvious the Russians aren't the threat they were made out to be and anything revolving around China is going to be a long range affair most likely fought in the sea lanes.. or B52s flying from Diego Garcia..

so what is the role of the F35 besides sucking up money in R@D?

Think they will ever announce what happened to the USMC F35 that flew itself into the ground in SC a few weeks ago?

is it going to end up like the LCS?



Lets face it, the Air Force still thinks they are going to bomb someone into the stone age with a shiny new plane or they are going to be fighting the Luftwaffe over Berlin... and reality seems to be they bomb people who can't do anything but be surprised.

We keep engaging ourselves in battles with people riding donkeys and Toyotas but who never have airplanes of their own. LOL
Much of the value of the F 35 lies in the sensor suite. I am not a fan of the one-size-fits-all airplane, and I’m not a fan of how the cost grew on this thing.

But, the F 35 is like your iPhone, and the A-10 is a rotary dial from 1973.

So, you simply cannot compare what they bring to the Battlefield. The F-35 sensors are a huge leap ahead. The ability of stealth, of sensors, changes the game. And the airplane can be loaded up with bombs in a non-stealth mode to provide a very capable CAS platform.

The F 35 has range, speed, and the ability to defend itself when it is doing CAS. If you’re in trouble, and you’re on the ground, do you want to wait an hour for that airplane to get there, or would you like it there in 30 minutes? If the speed of response matters, you don’t want an A-10.

Again, the big gun is of limited utility. Most of the close air support was done with JDAM.

You just dismiss the F 35s unique capabilities as if they were nothing. They are game changers. The airplane itself is no leap forward in performance the way the F 22 is however, what they built into the airplane is.
 
well, I imagine its in th epilots own interest to say it is th ebest thing ever... I'm not saying to stop the program, I'm just saying they have been working on it for 20 years now and still don't seem to have a working fleet. Oh, and it was supposed to be affordable. there is always that.

Air Force has a history of this, its like the B1.. I think they pretty much retired them, and the B2 cost's so much they only use it for special duty... meanwhile they still use B52's... I believe the USAF still has 70 of them in service.. which is incredible, because that air frame has been around almost as long as the obsolete Iowa class battleship. :)
Well, if it is in the pilot’s best interest to say their platform is the best, then we can discount your A-10 Pilot comments just as easily, right?

The advantages that the B-52 has over the A-10 is life left in the airframe, and a big enough airframe to modify it. It has been adapted, and modified, several times during its service life.

A bomber, and a tactical aircraft, are a complete apples to oranges comparison. They have very different roles, they serve very different purposes, they have very different performance requirements, and they have very different airframe fatigue.
 
Astro, you are pretty skilled at putting words in other peoples mouths..

anyway you look at it.. there are competing interests in weapons programs..

like the battleship being as obsolete as a fighter plane... the guy may be on to something but some people don't want to hear it.
 
well, I imagine its in the pilots own interest to say it is the best thing ever... I'm not saying to stop the program, I'm just saying they have been working on it for 20 years now and still don't seem to have a working fleet. Oh, and it was supposed to be affordable. there is always that.

Air Force has a history of this, its like the B1.. I think they pretty much retired them, and the B2 cost's so much they only use it for special duty... meanwhile they still use B52's... I believe the USAF still has 70 of them in service.. which is incredible, because that air frame has been around almost as long as the obsolete Iowa class battleship.

I guess it is like everything else... they want a Formula 1 car but need to use it as a dump truck..

Who says there's no working fleet? I suppose it's not perfect, but no aircraft has ever been. What didn't have teething pains?


The B-52 is very different. It's basically a cargo plane where the cargo is bombs and cruise missiles and it drops its cargo in anger. I don't believe that's a terribly stressful use. Other than it not being the most efficient (and the re-engining might improve that) it's not unreasonable to keep it around, just like the USAF still has 707-based aircraft.
 
Anybody ever see an A10 come down for a gun run? All it takes is 3 well placed infantry with stingers or a sa-7. I love the A10 but I will agree it's only effectiveness was because nobody had any SAMs.

The 30mm on the A10 is awesome. So is a 500lb bomb delivered from a jet that you can't see.

Don’t forget, Serbians downed F117 with SA-3 from 1962. And it wasn’t luck..

It was luck. Other than flying the same route multiple times and running with no sensors and radar, the serbs got lucky and decided to turn their radar on at the exact time the bomb doors on the F117 was opened. Even then they only nicked the F117.
 
104-0 is the F15s record in combat. The only close call is because we sold the striped down models to borderline 3rd world countries.
 
I find it remarkable how many supporters there are for the A-10, including some who admit that it requires an uncontested environment to operate.
A10 maintenance was a jobs program for the local economy in which it was based. The USAF tried to kill it many times and made some weird compromise.
 
Right but it never went up against a Tier 1 adversary (ex, Russians).
yeah. look at it this way, there aren't any Tier 1 adversaries . probably hasn't been since Korea and Mig Alley.

right now the Russians are buying artilerry rounds from North Korea, so that tells you something of their capabilities.

maybe the F35 is obsolete... not from a technical prowess standpoint but merely from a standpoint of it not having any
thing to fight against.
 
maybe the F35 is obsolete... not from a technical prowess standpoint but merely from a standpoint of it not having any
thing to fight against.

The point of military superiority is to make sure you're always better off than the guy you're fighting. A fair fight is a dangerous fight.
 
The point of military superiority is to make sure you're always better off than the guy you're fighting. A fair fight is a dangerous fight.
I agree, but one thing I have observed over my lifetime seems to be the idea that in order to fuel the military industrial complex the USA always seems to need an enemy.. imaginary or not How many aircraft carriers do we need when no potential enemy has even one useable model? Lot of stuff like that, where you know it is a jobs program disguised as a military operation.

it was the Russians when I was a kid... then it became the Muslims, and now it is what? The Chinese? who we got now?
 
yeah. look at it this way, there aren't any Tier 1 adversaries . probably hasn't been since Korea and Mig Alley.

right now the Russians are buying artilerry rounds from North Korea, so that tells you something of their capabilities.

maybe the F35 is obsolete... not from a technical prowess standpoint but merely from a standpoint of it not having any
thing to fight against.
Sure it may be like that right now but the F15 has been in service since 1975 and I don't think it ever went up against a Sukhoi flown by a Russian pilot. IIRC the Israelis have had the most air-to-air engagements in the aircraft but they were up against Syrians and older Migs.
 
Sure it may be like that right now but the F15 has been in service since 1975 and I don't think it ever went up against a Sukhoi flown by a Russian pilot. IIRC the Israelis have had the most air-to-air engagements in the aircraft but they were up against Syrians and older Migs.
you are on the right track... who is next? maybe the Chinese and their J 22? they have one oil fired aircraft carrier that seems to spend more time on fire than on the water, and one potential oil fueled aircraft carrier being built and no history of waging either an air war or a naval war.. I can't see us flying into China except in the most extreme circumstance and that is probably going to have a nuke under the wing.. and the Chinese aren't going to expand militarily and invade anybody else... so its sort of a question of who to do what.
 
Anybody ever see an A10 come down for a gun run? All it takes is 3 well placed infantry with stingers or a sa-7. I love the A10 but I will agree it's only effectiveness was because nobody had any SAMs.

The 30mm on the A10 is awesome. So is a 500lb bomb delivered from a jet that you can't see.



It was luck. Other than flying the same route multiple times and running with no sensors and radar, the serbs got lucky and decided to turn their radar on at the exact time the bomb doors on the F117 was opened. Even then they only nicked the F117.
Yes, I have seen them running guns in the Balkans.
Luck? Operating such system in that environment where HARM’s were flying like hot cakes around is not luck. The SA-3 radar was operating literally 7 seconds to acquire and later 3 sec to guide. In 1999 if you operates anything longer than 15sec there you were toast.
Don’t get me wrong, amount of fired SAM’s was more than 700, and I think NATO airplanes fired more than 800 HARM’s. The efficiency on both sides when it comes to this issue was questionable.
 
... amount of fired SAM’s was more than 700, and I think NATO airplanes fired more than 800 HARM’s. The efficiency on both sides when it comes to this issue was questionable.
By the time of that conflict the real F-4G Wild Weasels had been retired. The F-16s (at the time) used in their place were a much less capable platform. It's not too much of an exaggeration to say a HARM launched from an F-16 wasn't likely to hit anything other than the ground. Going against smart operators that preserved their radars didn't help either the SAM or HARM effectiveness. At least HARMs launched from F-16s kept the SAM operators honest by limiting their on times.
 
I agree, but one thing I have observed over my lifetime seems to be the idea that in order to fuel the military industrial complex the USA always seems to need an enemy.. imaginary or not How many aircraft carriers do we need when no potential enemy has even one useable model? Lot of stuff like that, where you know it is a jobs program disguised as a military operation.

it was the Russians when I was a kid... then it became the Muslims, and now it is what? The Chinese? who we got now?

I completely agree; I'm not a fan of the US military industrial complex at all and how there's always an enemy. I hate it, the waste of resources, and the loss of life. Unfortunately history is riddled with the results of human bloodshed.

Yes, I have seen them running guns in the Balkans.
Luck? Operating such system in that environment where HARM’s were flying like hot cakes around is not luck. The SA-3 radar was operating literally 7 seconds to acquire and later 3 sec to guide. In 1999 if you operates anything longer than 15sec there you were toast.
Don’t get me wrong, amount of fired SAM’s was more than 700, and I think NATO airplanes fired more than 800 HARM’s. The efficiency on both sides when it comes to this issue was questionable.

Bad opsec let the 117s fly the same route every time, there was no ECM aircraft on station, no sensors/radar on, and overconfidence. The low freq radar allowed the SAM operator to know the aircraft's "general position" so they launched two SAMs in it's general vicinity and given the 117s flew the same path every time, the first missile missed but the second one blew up close enough for shrapnel damage. It was good planning and good intel though and showed that cutting edge technology can still be defeated by simple planning and observations.
 
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