Klotz R-50 tear down measurement's

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
132
Location
usa
I done this tear down back in the winter,I am going to post another set of measurements that I just did with 52+ hrs.


Motor: 03 KX250 Head mod and ports altered

Boyesen Pro Series reeds
Klotz R-50 40:1

AV GAS 100LL JETTED ON THE MARK..

MX only ridden at ORV Chaddsworth, Blue Diamond, and Seaford, DE.

As some of you know, I am a big fan of Maxima 927 (castor based with synthetic). The KX250 port layout, especially on the intake side, is a little aggressive. Light vertical scratches form on the intake side of the piston below the bottom ring and in line with both ring locating pins. This is not dirt related - trust me on this. The only oil that I have seen eliminate this is the 927. The 927 is excellent at lubricating and would be my oil of choice, but the main and sub powervalves are time consuming to strip because of the hard, baked on carbon wedged between the valves and chamber. The KX's, 03 and past, do not have a breather line for the power valve chamber. This just compounds the carbon even more. YZ's and RM's would be easier to strip. Lubrication is top priority then cleanliness. If an oil keeps the valves, head, and piston ring groove fairly clean that is fine and dandy, but if lubrication is in question, what good is it? Everyone is so concerned about how clean their motor is with a certain oil, they rate that oil on cleanliness alone. I too like to have my powervalves drop right out and the head with light or no build up along with the piston, but to have both lubrication and a fairly clean motor is a great combination.

The KLOTZ R-50 line is synthetic ester (not castor based like their other oils). These are my findings.
I am not a Klotz dealer I have nothing to gain or lose from my comments. I will give measurements first, then my visual inspection. The R-50 was used exclusively after a fresh top end and also broken in with it.

Wrist pin dia: 17.99mm standard is 17.995-18mm / service is 17.96.
Ring thickness: .97mm standard is .970mm-.985 / service is.90mm.
Piston ring groove width: 1.02 standard is 1.01-1.03mm / service is 1.11mm.
Ring end gap:.51mm(.020in) standard is .35-.55mm (.014in-.0215) / service is.90mm (.0335in)
Piston dia : 66.33mm standard 66.336-66.351mm / service is 66.23mm.
Rod big end side clearance:(.020in) standard (.018-.022 in) service/ is .027in.
Side clearance was .(020) Last tear down also.

As you can see the numbers look great. I could have gone another 15 hrs easily . I have it apart, so you know the deal!!!!

The main valve pulled right out there was no carbon at all wedged in between the valve and chamber. There was a smidgen of carbon at the valve end sides, not in the center portion. It was not hard at all, and I could have scraped it off with my fingernail. The valves were also very well lubricated with a nice coating of oil. In fact, the subs slid out very smoothly just as the main valve. The rest of the valve and the sub valves were just discolored (CARAMEL COLOR). I put them on my bench grinder with a very fine wire brush, PIECE OF CAKE!!! The teeth on the subs also had a nice coating of oil between them, some of the teeth did have slight carbon build up, but nothing drastic. The teeth spaces are very narrow. I am very happy with the stripping of the valves and the medium clean up. The head was just discolored. The piston had very light carbon on the crown which is normal. I did have slight blow by on both sides of the piston above the wrist pin and on the right side of the exhaust. I pulled my pipe after a few hours on the new top end and saw the slight blow by on the exhaust side. It looked the same when I tore it down 40 hours later. The face of the rings looked beautiful showing no blow by at all. I am confident in saying that I had the blow by from the break in period. The crank halves had a very good and sufficient layer of oil on them when rotating. I just loved the way this oil was being picked up. I was riding pretty hard my last ride before I shut down. I only idled in about 10 seconds, so 40:1 with the R-50 IS MORE THAN SUFFICIENT. Did I mention I like the way this oil layers the crank? The thrust washers were moving very freely and the rod itself looked like it had been getting lubricated with oil. It had kind of a rich color to it, no surface rust at all. The piston on the intake side looked great, no vertical scratches - what more can I say. As you can see I have a fetish with oils.
 
OK here is my latest tear down just the basics. I wanted to go the 70 hr mark well read on.

I will not be going the 70 hr mark on my top end,My motor locked up this weekend,and it was letting me know something was wrong,but I was caught up in the moment. I was hammerin along at MT PLEASANT MX TRACK(SAND) I heard some rattling more like slight ching,ching,ching for about 2 laps I thought my number plate bolt was coming loose or skid plate etc. Then power felt a little weaker then normal, I pulled out of a corner headed for a table, on the face of the jump I felt the motor tighten up, as I left I heard klink, klink, klink, and it locked up on me, cleared the jump and landed safely. I was pushing my bike back knowing it was the bottom end . I tore it down and the bottom rod bearing was rolled flat, the cage did not open up and let the bearings loose.I had this happen to my 00 KX 250 AND IT WAS NOT PRETTY ,CYLINDER AND HEAD DAMAGE.I am lucky no head or cylinder damage whatsoever this time. This is not oil related,but just too much hard time 150+hrs,I was amazed how the crank halves were still picking up cosiderable amount of the R- 50, Remember I was going full out for 20 minutes then it locked on me, no idling before shut down. I can still rotate the rod on the cage and picking up oil too my likings when rotating the crank. I cannot prove this,but I did not care for the MX2T when I used it for about 45 hrs in another top end.It left my crank a little on the dry side to say the least and surface rust.I think the MX2T Might have contributed to the rod bearing failure causing excessive wear,but I am not being fair because of the amount of time. I will not get into too many measurement's just the basics.
03 KX250 52+HRS KLOTZ R-50 AVGAS STATIC COMPRESSION 245LBS AFTER 242LBS
PISTON New :66.35MM AFTER 66.30MM SERVICE:66.23 LOST.002 inch
RING END GAP NEW .015inch AFTER .023inch SERVICE.031inch
CYLINDER LAST TIME front back side to side top,bottom 66.39MM NOW 66.39MM SERVICE 66.48MM

I could have went the 70 hr mark,but I am happy with these measurements I do not like to push to the service limit,so 50 to 60 hrs will do it for me.

On a side note forget about checking rod side clearance for bearing wear, it will tell you nothing about the rod bearing.I have a smoked rod bearing and My side clearance is still .020 inch. I am posting pics of my powervalves tonight to show what a fine balance the R-50 has, lubrication vs cleanliness
 
The amount of residual oil int he crank case is a function of ratio and the conditions prior to shut down.
Glad you had good luck with R-50. I have used it in the past, but moved on to better stuff.
FWIW I have been doing some testing with Yamalube 2r. Its a great oil also even though its a semi synthetic.
 
BTW I look forward to seeing your pics. I have a bunch, but This site doesnt allow pics to be posted directly which stinks IMO.
 
Blano I also was a big fan of the yamalube 2-r a few years back. Reason why I stoped using it, I don't know .Guess I just wanted to make a change,we know that feeling inside when you start testing a new oil LOL.The crown of the piston when using the 2-r is very clean. Can I ask what faults do you have with the r-50?
 
We actually ran it in one of my freinds kx 250s we set up for ice racing. Lots of deposits on the valves, and corrosion issues where the reasons we stoped using it. We have since switched to mx2t in everything for the most part and have 4 years of runingh it with out issue in everything from chainsaws and snowmobiles to my cr 500AF. We have never had corrosion issues with its use.

Maybe the reason you are seeing less deposit issues is because you are using avgas. Avags has deposit control compounds to remove the lead and will also remove some deposits.
 
Here are the pics of the power valves after 52 hours. Everything can be cleaned up with a soft wire wheel on a grinder. The power valves are mainly discolored.I swiped the main valve cover with my finger to show it is just oil no carbon. There is slight carbon on the valves,but mostly just discoloration.

Pics
 
KX 455,

Not to sound like I'm a Mobil salesman or anything, but have you tried MX2T in your bike?

I gave it a try here a little while back and was 100% impressed with it...actually, it's the ONLY oil I use in my non-marine two-strokes!
 
quote:

Originally posted by Jelly:
KX 455,

Not to sound like I'm a Mobil salesman or anything, but have you tried MX2T in your bike?

I gave it a try here a little while back and was 100% impressed with it...actually, it's the ONLY oil I use in my non-marine two-strokes!


.......

Hey Jelly no problem,I am a big fan of mobil oil's I use there delvac 1300S in my tranny and in my motovan and swore by their mobil 1 15/50in my tranny until I gave the delvac a try. Now for the fun part,I used the mx2t the whole 40 +hrs faithfully on a fresh top endI did not like what I seen in the crank rather, lack of oil being picked up. I also believe it caused my crank to form rust.I will say it is a very clean oil when breaking down the powervalves.
 
My crank and top end should be delivered next week. I am going to experiment with another oil just for giggles,I can't help it LOL!I have been thinking about the amsoil series 2000(dominator). I have used it before and loved what I seen in the crank,but I thought the topend was a little dry. I was mixing 50:1,if I do decide to try it again 40:1 will be my ratio. I Really don't get how motul and amsoil or belray mc-1 can recommend 50:1 RATIOS not knowing what size engine or how it is being used.
 
KX455, Notice my comments on residual oil posted above. BTW mx2t is less apparent at teardown because it is colorless. Every motor I have torn down that used it has plenty of oil in the bottom end.
 
quote:

Originally posted by blano:
KX455, Notice my comments on residual oil posted above. BTW mx2t is less apparent at teardown because it is colorless. Every motor I have torn down that used it has plenty of oil in the bottom end.

....

Yes I did read your comments on residual oil.You have a valid point with the R-50 being red and the mx2t being colorless. The r- 50 would be more pronounced
 
You know what after 52 hrs of hard mx riding and the measurements I took the r-50 is a killer oil.I love experimenting with new oils,but I am staying with the r-50.
 
I would also like to remark that cleanliness and wear go hand in hand. Carbon deposits decrease ring mobility which casues piton, ring and cylinder wear.
The latest technology oils protect ot very high temps, yet burn very clean when used as designed. castor based and high density ester base oils might protect to a slightly higher temp, but its largeley irrelevent. Excessive heat that will cause damage in a two cycle motor is always the result of conditions that are run aways in nature (detonation,etc). As a result the motor simply keeps getting hotter and hotter till seizure occurs. The only way to prevent these episodes is to fix the cause. Using a ultra high fire point oil is a poor fix for problems like this and in most cases will not help anyway.
 
I have used R-50 with very good life also. I like the oil, and especially the fact that a gallon of it is fairly cheap at my local store.

But, I did have some deposit issues with it. Piston rings that stick cause problems, as does excessive carbon buildup. Both of which I experienced with the Klotz. No, it was not as severe as I have seen with other oils. However loss of compression caused a premature teardown.

MX2t has been a good choice for my uses. No crank rust here with that Mobil oil. And I use it in my salt water SeaDoo.

Chris

Chris
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top