Is calcium the key

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csp203

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It has long been written that you can expect the same protection from dino juice as you can from synthetic over short to moderate intervals (3000-5000 miles), disregarding temps below -20. Along with this it has been written that the major advantage to using a synthetic or "diesel" oil is that they will keep your engine cleaner verses a "regular" dino.

As far as I can tell the reason for this would be the typical synthetic (mobil, GC) has alot more calcium (detergent) that a regular dino. The "diesel" oils also have a very healthy does of calcium when compared to plain dino juice.

The reason I am making this observation, nobdy seems (to me at least) to place a high value on calcium, as apposed to zddp, moly, boron. What is an acceptable amout of calcium to have in an oil?

I have also noticed that the new GF4/sm oils have a reduced calcium levels when compared to GF3 oils.


Some examples pulled from the VOA section.


Phillips Trop Artic 5w-30 API SM
Calcium 1521


Motorcraft 10w-30
Calcium 2077


New GF-4 Mobil 1 5w-30
Calcium 2500

Mobil-1 5W-30 SuperSyn
Calcium 2971

Pennzoil 10W-30 sl
Calcium 2060

Pennzoil 10w-30 API SM - GF-4
Calcium 1763
 
Calcium and Boron seem to be the additives these days.
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"synergistic combination of additives"

We often hear that brand X has low levels of an additive and then think it is bad. In fact, that X brand may be better, because some other additive acts in synergy therefore amplifying the effect.

One cannot just look at additives and know what that final product is capable of doing. You really need to test drive the oil. Again, UOA is only one test and will not tell the whole story. The additives themselves complicate the analysis.

I reiterate that motor oil is way more complex than any of us know. After speaking to chemists in the field for years I am sure that even the very chemists who make the stuff only know a portion of the recipe. No one person can know it all.

As the years have gone by I understand and know more but I also realize the increasing complexity of motor oil. One thing I can be certain of is that I will never get it all.

aehaas
 
quote:
I reiterate that motor oil is way more complex than any of us know
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AEHaas, I highly recommend you take some time to read Molekule's posts. Many of which are in the Interesting Article/Question of the Day threads. He is a Chemist with a PHD and is not only aware of what goes on in the industry, but is a formulator. If it weren't for him, this site wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is today. It is very rare you find someone with his credentials to take the time to educate dopes like me on this kind of thing.
cheers.gif


Molekule has said repetedly that a virgin oil analysis only shows so much and that their are additives that don't show up in the spectrographic reports we look at. And as you said, it is a synergistic process to have everything work cohesively.
cheers.gif


[ February 17, 2005, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
I have read his posts. I have gotten more information from his posts than from industry chemists I personally know.

Read Read Read. That is most of what I do.

For example, last night I read a series on nuts and bolts. I picked up a few more good points after reading this entire web site:

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/info.htm

aehaas

I have my own mill shop - small but useful. Metallurgy is difficult but I find motor oil to be much more esoteric, nearly impossible to master. Part of the problem is that there is really no way to know all of what is in there. Newly synthesized additives may not be easy to identify even by the other oil companies. There are industrial secrets. That is why I say you really have to test drive the oil.

I assure you I care for my Ferrari more that most other owners and I keep cars for long periods. I am confident that the 0W-20 M1 I am using is working for me very well, and that it is the best oil for my application or I would be using something else.

[ February 17, 2005, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: AEHaas ]
 
sounds a bit like Lubrication Enginers oil??,most like a sleeper engine oil we tend to over look,pricey but a great product....BL
 
quote:
Originally posted by AEHaas:
I find motor oil to be much more esoteric, nearly impossible to master.
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That's why only Elves can master the great formulations...you have to live a loooooooong time before you truly understand...if only JRR Tolkien had been interested in tribology...
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quote:
For example, last night I read a series on nuts and bolts. I picked up a few more good points after reading this entire web site:
Click to expand...
Speaking of Nuts and Bolts (most people consider me to be in the former category)
grin.gif
engineers and tribologists are STILL trying to predict and determine how bearing friction relates to Torque in Bolted joints.

I am currently trying to acquire a paper from Tribology Transactions that addresses that very question, since this has been a question that I have been following since undergraduate studies in college. As soon as I receive and study that paper I'll report on it if anyone is interested.

quote:
After speaking to chemists in the field for years I am sure that even the very chemists who make the stuff only know a portion of the recipe. No one person can know it all.
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I would have to say that the exceptions are chemists at Amsoil, Lubrication Engineers, Royal Purple, Redline, and Specialty Formulations and other small companies.

For companies like BP, Chevron, EXM, Shell, and others, I would have to say this is a true statement.
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[ February 17, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:
I would have to say that the exceptions are chemists at Amsoil, Lubrication Engineers, Royal Purple, Redline, and Specialty Formulations and other small companies.

For companies like BP, Chevron, EXM, Shell, and others, I would have to say this is a true statement.
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Did you mean that only chemists at Chevron/EXM etc know all of it, or the others? I would think that the big companies who make the additives have an edge.
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cheers.gif
 
And it gets complicated with the variety of engines, heat, the metals. I bet more than once a formulation tested worse than predicted.

I was thinking it is like Thomas Edison and the light bulb:

"Edison searched for the proper "filament" or wire, that would give good light when electricity flowed through it. He sent people to the jungles of the Amazon and forests of Japan in his search for a perfect filament material. He tested over 6,000 vegetable growths (baywood, boxwood, hickory, cedar, flax, bamboo) as filament material.

In 1879, after spending $40,000, and performing 1,200 experiments, he succeeded."
 
What MolaKule is saying is that the chemists in the BIG companies only know what they need to know. It is sort of like "it is not part of my job description." They only know what they are doing in their very small sub-division of the motor oil department.
The chemists in the small companies are few so they have to know all of what is going on. It may be there is only one person who does all the work on development.

It is like pulling teeth to get information out of Shell for example (I know because I occasionally have to pull them in head trauma situations).
The people over at Red Line are very accommodating and seem to have the answer to any question.

aehaas

I would be interested in any Nut info.
 
quote:
Speaking of Nuts and Bolts (most people consider me to be in the former category) engineers and tribologists are STILL trying to predict and determine how bearing friction relates to Torque in Bolted joints.
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It funny that most people think bolts are bolts, and that is that. As a Mechanical Engineer, I can tell you that fasteners cause more headaches than you many imagine.

Bearing friction, eh? We generally use that good 'ol catch-all "thread coefficient" number to try and capture underhead bearing friction and thread friction. Is this accurate for ALL types of fasteners, and ALL kinds of coatings and lubrication? I REALLY doubt it, but, hey, you gotta use something when designing! If there are issues with fastener selection / toruqe spec, we usually find 'em in product tests.

Molekule... If you solve this, be sure and let me know, OK?
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grin.gif
 
we need a "hijacked topic" smiley, as opposed to the "off topic smiley".

I'm in the process of arranging a bolting schoolfor the fitters at work, to show them why just about every bolt that they work on on the turbine is "200ftlb plus x degrees of rotation", rather than using torques (or the much favoured "reef on it until it yields and back off a bit").

We're engaging a company that provides ultrasonic stretch measuring equipment. The guy specifically did some consulting on the Sauber engines (more specifically the rod stud) to help overcome reliability issues...BTW, he reckons they have an M9 thread at one end, an M8.5 at the other, and ar rifle drilled down the centre for weight.

Should be a good show, with clean threads, stainless on stainless, antisiezes, oil etc.
 
Now that this has become a nut and bolt thread, where did the idea we needed 3/16'' screws come from? If we weren't going to stick to the #10's common for most of the twentieth century, why didn't we switch to 4 mm? I have asked this before and never gotten much of a answer. Is this some ISO crap?
 
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