Holy Purolator Flip Flop!

[Sam2000]

Originally Posted By: TriboGeek
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
And don't forget, if they admit to the problem, its potentially a huge recall both in work to figure out what and how to recall as well as cost and future reputation.

They've also advised us to buy newer stock. So perhaps they've fixed the problem and don't want us to use and cut open older stock and keep advertising the problem.


What concerns me is the documented cases around here, of Purolator being notified 2-3 years ago to these failures, and here we are years later finding the same problems.


Capitalism at its finest! If they think they can get away with it, they will try to.

 

[Sam2000]

Is anyone a consumer reports subscriber?

They like to hear about these kinds of things. Automotive negligence is also a hot topic right now.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Your efforts to change anybody's mind are totally fruitless.

Reasonable people have already stated that you and the rest of the lynch mob are not well grounded in reality and that several members of the mob have already stated an intention to do harm to Purolator - sue them into bankruptcy, start a major ruckus across other internet fora, and so on - because Purolator is up to something nefarious. They've suggested Purolator be given time to investigate, that all filters suffer the occasional defect, that no one is forcing anyone to buy or use Purolators, and that some quiet would be exceptionally appropriate.

And then they have left the conversation.

I have stated that I have seen this in BITOG before with the Mobil 1 fiasco, and it went exactly as this is going, including the promotion of these ungrounded theories and conspiracies by BITOG members onto other internet fora.

So, you are correct that an effort to change minds among the lynch mob, including new members you are apparently recruiting from elsewhere, are totally fruitless.

 

[Sam2000]

Wilhelm, go to the thread I linked to. In the same filter model, some have good pleat spacing including near the metal crimp and some have a large gap.

The ones with the larger gap have tears.

Purolator have told us they tested all parts of the filter but in their list of items tested they did not mention at all the pleat spacing. We have a picture of the filter that was sent to them, its in that thread. Its pleat spacing is huge and it is torn.

Purolator have now told us they have only one record of the issue which is apparently the one I linked to above.

They've told us that we should buy the latest filters because of unspecific improvements.

This is either poor quality control or the hiding of something. It is reminiscent of automotive recalls. Remember how often a manufacturer says it has an insignificant number of reports of the issue? This is what they are claiming.

It may be true but now they do have lots of reports. It took effort from members here to get responses. It is in their interest that this issue goes away quietly. But experience tells us that companies fix issues better and more quickly when there is commercial pressure to do so.

I know nothing about the Mobil issue. I do know that PQIA does a great job of drawing attention to faulty oil. That is what this is similar to. We buy filters randomly, we test them, and then inspect them.

I'm capable of reading the evidence and putting it into numerical context. I have a background in analysis and experience with statistics. I also know how companies behave and how easy it is for them to organizationally fail to address issues. They are far from perfect and are in business to make money. Quality is always a trade off.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Sam2000
I'm capable of reading the evidence and putting it into numerical context. I have a background in analysis and experience with statistics. I also know how companies behave and how easy it is for them to organizationally fail to address issues. They are far from perfect and are in business to make money.

In other words, you have some suspicions.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Your efforts to change anybody's mind are totally fruitless.

Reasonable people have already stated that you and the rest of the lynch mob are not well grounded in reality and that several members of the mob have already stated an intention to do harm to Purolator - sue them into bankruptcy, start a major ruckus across other internet fora, and so on - because Purolator is up to something nefarious. They've suggested Purolator be given time to investigate, that all filters suffer the occasional defect, that no one is forcing anyone to buy or use Purolators, and that some quiet would be exceptionally appropriate.


You're live in a dream world. Just who are these "reasonable" people you speak of? I think that list is comprised of you and maybe one other member, tops. And I challenge you to go quote me where I've ever said I wanted to sue Purolator. There are so many guys opposed to your nonsensical viewpoint on all of this that you can't keep them straight and it seems I'm the only one you ever really focus on and try to "debate" your twisted logic with. Go find all those quotes where I say I'm gonna sue Purolator and anything even remotely along those lines. You fail to comprehend that I'm simply pointing out a defect on an oil filter ... and it doesn't even matter what the brand name is printed on the side of the can.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
I have stated that I have seen this in BITOG before with the Mobil 1 fiasco, and it went exactly as this is going, including the promotion of these ungrounded theories and conspiracies by BITOG members onto other internet fora.

So, you are correct that an effort to change minds among the lynch mob, including new members you are apparently recruiting from elsewhere, are totally fruitless.


I don't think this is quite the same as the "Mobil 1 fiasco". There is more forensic proof that something really is wrong with the media tearing going on. From the little I know about the Mobil 1 fiasco, it sounded like the forensics didn't have any legs to stand on ... this one does.

Yes, you can't even deflect the momentum one iota ... so just watch the show and stop causing more friction.

 

[Sam2000]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
I'm capable of reading the evidence and putting it into numerical context. I have a background in analysis and experience with statistics. I also know how companies behave and how easy it is for them to organizationally fail to address issues. They are far from perfect and are in business to make money.

In other words, you have some suspicions.






That's a simplification and a mis characterization.

I have reviewed several filters through pictures. The Purolator quality manager has not apparently reviewed any, he is new and has only found one case at Purolator that was examined before he started there.

I see an unexpected occurrence of filters with tears and when there are tears they are in the same place on a pleat that is next to the metal crimp with a large gap between it and the metal crimp. I see that the same filter has no tears when the pleats are more evenly spaced.

So I apparently have reviewed more evidence than the sole person from Purolator from whom we are all getting official information from.

I have read the results of Purolators analysis of a failed filter and noted they made NO mention on the pleat spacing / gap vs spec but did comment on virtually everything else in relation to design ie attachment of media to end cap, gasket integrity, adbv etc.

I have read the response of the Purolator quality manager and note that he claims they can't repeat the problem, that they don't test filters used in the field, that they believe the issue is limited but nevertheless suggests we buy the latest filters because they may address the problem we are seeing.

So you can call this suspicions. I call it evaluation of factual information and arriving at a reasoned conclusion.

I do have a suspicion that Purolator know about this issue and are waiting for it to go away without doing any recalls. The only other alternative is that they are incompetent in terms of quality or that we had a fantastic statistical anomaly that only affected BITOG members.

I also have a suspicion that you are trolling or have some kind of emotional issue going on (as also evidenced by the tone of the abrupt and rude PM you sent me). I would suspect there was some kind of injustice in your past that may not have happened had those making the judgement on you been more logical in their evaluation. I have actually read what you have said quite carefully and you make points that would be valid in terms of how one should approach an investigation without prejudging.

But at some point you need to look at what the totality of the evidence is telling you and start piecing it together. You've done a good job of playing devils advocate and I've actually looked and evaluated further evidence as a result of your posts. Now you need to undig your heels and do the same.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
In other words, you have some suspicions.

That's a simplification and a mis characterization.

I was being kind.

 

[Sam2000]

No need to be kind. We won't get to the truth by pulling punches.

Tell us what you really think (but not what you feel) and prove your points with facts related to the argument at hand. Hint: saying that comments in this thread are like hysteria from another thread is an emotional argument that prejudges the motivations and thought processes of people without any basis in fact on your part. It is an unfounded suspicion introduced by you to obfuscate the facts being discussed.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Sam2000

I also have a suspicion that you are trolling or have some kind of emotional issue going on (as also evidenced by the tone of the abrupt and rude PM you sent me).


That right there is a no-no. If someone PMs you with personal attacks and rudeness, just report it to Helen or one of the moderators and they will be dealt with appropriately.

Mr WD seems to be crossing the lines here. He really needs to take a chill pill on this or he's going to find himself on "vacation".

 

[Keto]

Just waiting for the pics of the OP's 'trainwreck' filter....

 

[TriboGeek]

I think Wilhelm is right to not want to get hysterical or unduly attack Purolator. Personally I think the damage from all this bad publicity is probably punishment enough, and fair play. Law suits are not even feasible, IMO, let alone warranted.

Purolator should be given a fair chance to do the right thing. I'm not sure what that should be, but I know what it would not be.

 

[Sam2000]

Part of the reaction is disappointment. This site is very pro Purolator and wants to use their products.

FRAM on the other hand gets regularly blasted but one of their employees, Jay Buckley aka Motorking, visits us occasionally and is nothing but helpful. He's organized factory visits and internees when people have had filter issues.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Keto
Just waiting for the pics of the OP's 'trainwreck' filter....

Shows what a sensational title and a mad emoticon will get you. Verbiage and crickets, no proof required.

Must be considering the timing strategery before posting.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That right there is a no-no. If someone PMs you with personal attacks and rudeness, just report it to Helen or one of the moderators and they will be dealt with appropriately.


I did not PM him.

Quote:
Mr WD seems to be crossing the lines here. He really needs to take a chill pill on this or he's going to find himself on "vacation".

Don't threaten me.

 

[antiqueshell]

Although a few would probably like this thread to be locked and go away, I hope it does not.

The discussion has been very reasonable up till recently so lets keep it that way. Let's keep the personal element out of this.

I would at least like Purolator to advise us as to which serial numbers would be new production where the problem has been eliminated. I have never remembered seeing a date code on any of the applications I use from them.

 

[possum328]

Wow, this thread has gotten a bit nasty. First, you know nothing about me - so please don't jump to hyperbole. My sincere apologies if my description of my torn filter as "a trainwreck" was too sensational for you. It was not my intent to confuse you with "verbiage" then leave you with "crickets"... I have not been able to post pics - so sorry to disappoint you. The torn pleats look just like to other Puro failures posted here. So much for trying to share product experiences here. How dare I. Kudos an your happy bouncing emoticon canceling out my mad emoticon. Sheesh.

 

[Sam2000]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That right there is a no-no. If someone PMs you with personal attacks and rudeness, just report it to Helen or one of the moderators and they will be dealt with appropriately.


I did not PM him.


You know very well that you did. I can put up a screenshot if you like.

 

[SirPete]

Possum,

I have posted a cut open filter with same P/N L14459 as yours. Mine has 4 tears, two on each side of the metal seam. The two media folds on mine look like they collapse toward the center of the filter. Is your "train wrecked" filter failed similar to mine? To be honest, the engine purr like a kitten even with these tears in mine. I could not tell any difference with the replacement Fram Toughguard filter.

 

[possum328]

Sounds about right.