I'd just keep your Dart and get 250K miles out of it.
Going several hours to buy a car
- Thread starter ram_man
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Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
I'd just keep your Dart and get 250K miles out of it.
I have to agree, I don't see where this transaction makes financial sense. The Dart is a very sensible car.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I really just want a Saturn again.
If that's what you want, do it...but I think keeping the Dart is the more logical thing to do.
I'd just keep your Dart and get 250K miles out of it.
I have to agree, I don't see where this transaction makes financial sense. The Dart is a very sensible car.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I really just want a Saturn again.
If that's what you want, do it...but I think keeping the Dart is the more logical thing to do.
I have owned several saturns. For what they were designed for they are great. But before jumping in. There a few things you should know.
Check for body rust. Especially where the rear training arms meet the body ( infront of the rear wheel) If this is rusted out, the car is toast.
In addition if there is heavy rust, the rear brake drum backing plates are hard to find. you are lucky if you find good ones in a pull- it yard.
All the saturn s- series used low tension piston rings, and they burn oil. As much as a quart in 400- 800 miles for some.
Pre 2002 cars need the original coolant temp sensor changed from the leaky polymer to the brass ones. When they go bad, the car will run really rich. Some 2001 cars had brass , some polymer. If its leaked a while, the wiring connector will be corroded and will need to be replaced too.
Some 2000-2002 body panels interchange. But since they stopped production, you only have 2 years of the third gen. So front bumpers and rear bumpers and hoods can be hard to find for 2002 models , This is especially true for the SC models of 2001-2002.
Certain parts are not available oem anymore and there is no quality manufacturer. Parts like strut bearing mounts and engine vibration mounts especially. Moog stut mounts used to be good, I'm not so sure about them now. Not really any great engine mounts and dog bone mounts made. You will find DEA and Anchor, they are cheap but nowhere near oem.
Head bolts can be wierd as GM had an odd torquing instruction for them, and it does not work for aftermarket head bolts.
The oil screen pickup to block gasket is not available oem and is not included in any engine gasket set. There may be one source only for them. You need to make sure to remove it from the block and keep it if it goes to the machine shop.
The clutch slave cylinders are not bleedable and you have to order the entire slave master assembly.
The sohc engines had the tendancy to have the intake manifold gasket go bad. This causes a high idle, around 2000 rpm.
Still neat cars, when running well. a manual sc1 can get 40+mpg hwy, not sure about the SL1 as its not as aero.
Check for body rust. Especially where the rear training arms meet the body ( infront of the rear wheel) If this is rusted out, the car is toast.
In addition if there is heavy rust, the rear brake drum backing plates are hard to find. you are lucky if you find good ones in a pull- it yard.
All the saturn s- series used low tension piston rings, and they burn oil. As much as a quart in 400- 800 miles for some.
Pre 2002 cars need the original coolant temp sensor changed from the leaky polymer to the brass ones. When they go bad, the car will run really rich. Some 2001 cars had brass , some polymer. If its leaked a while, the wiring connector will be corroded and will need to be replaced too.
Some 2000-2002 body panels interchange. But since they stopped production, you only have 2 years of the third gen. So front bumpers and rear bumpers and hoods can be hard to find for 2002 models , This is especially true for the SC models of 2001-2002.
Certain parts are not available oem anymore and there is no quality manufacturer. Parts like strut bearing mounts and engine vibration mounts especially. Moog stut mounts used to be good, I'm not so sure about them now. Not really any great engine mounts and dog bone mounts made. You will find DEA and Anchor, they are cheap but nowhere near oem.
Head bolts can be wierd as GM had an odd torquing instruction for them, and it does not work for aftermarket head bolts.
The oil screen pickup to block gasket is not available oem and is not included in any engine gasket set. There may be one source only for them. You need to make sure to remove it from the block and keep it if it goes to the machine shop.
The clutch slave cylinders are not bleedable and you have to order the entire slave master assembly.
The sohc engines had the tendancy to have the intake manifold gasket go bad. This causes a high idle, around 2000 rpm.
Still neat cars, when running well. a manual sc1 can get 40+mpg hwy, not sure about the SL1 as its not as aero.
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I don't really know your reasoning but i assume it is to rid yourself of your payment on the Dart to buy a car you can pay cash for. I did this back in 2001 after years of buying new vehicles on a regular basis. I am on my second car since then and really refuse to go down the payment path again even tho I can afford to. Now I enjoy racking up miles on a car, maintaining it correctly and putting cash away so i am ready when i need to buy my next vehicle, cash only. I don't drive junk but save enough to buy a good car but only every 10 years or so.
Good luck in your search. Only drive manuals myself also.
Good luck in your search. Only drive manuals myself also.
spasm3 covered many of my concerns. I had my 99 SL2 13 years. Took it too 274,000 miles, but took $5,000 in repairs to get there. After paying off my loan I swore I would only pay cash. No more loans. The good thing when I got off work I could switch out parts and was good to go much of the time.
The Saturn may be a jewel, or something that needs attention when parts are less available. Easy to work on. I did most of the repairs except for A/C and engine replacement. What would concern me most is lack of body parts. I could find 20 Saturns at Pick-N-Pull any day of the week but most of them were pre-2000 before the body changed.
When I got my Elantra the thought of my Saturn was like having a bad dream. Night and day improvement with the Elantra and I have the stripped down model. So if you do get it I hope it works out, but it seems like a step backwards. Being out of debt would be plus. Good luck!
The Saturn may be a jewel, or something that needs attention when parts are less available. Easy to work on. I did most of the repairs except for A/C and engine replacement. What would concern me most is lack of body parts. I could find 20 Saturns at Pick-N-Pull any day of the week but most of them were pre-2000 before the body changed.
When I got my Elantra the thought of my Saturn was like having a bad dream. Night and day improvement with the Elantra and I have the stripped down model. So if you do get it I hope it works out, but it seems like a step backwards. Being out of debt would be plus. Good luck!
To put to bed the reasoning behind dumping the dart.
I just paid cash for a small house. I have all the health issues and decided we don't need 2 car payments on cars that depreciate like rocks. The darts though my fondness for them are very quirky and only being made for three years their flaws will never be improved upon. They eat BCM the ddct trans is junk the 1.4 turbo is an expensive nightmare and the multi air brick is something out of science fiction magazine. I guess what I'm saying is I woke up and realized the money that's being spent on two car payments and [censored] coverage insurance could easily be going to someone that creates or offers value not something that loses value. My interest rate is on the higher side and the wife's dart is literally garbage. I do not trust it to leave the zip code. I do however trust mine for the most part. But if anyone thinks tbeyll go 250,000 your dreaming. If darts go that long it'll the exception not the rule. Also do to my health issues i am not working . Now I've gotten better enough that I'm going to go back to college which means I'll be broke for atleast a couple years. I'd rather not have a car payment and I'd rather have a car that when it breaks I can fix it. There is so much I can't fix on a dart because of special tool this and special tool that. But yea 2 car payments is dumb and I don't want to do it anymore. Also not saying credit is bad but yea I don't intend of needing it. I've got a house paid for I own everything in cash except the darts. And whichever dart stays will be the wife's car. If I had my way they'd both be gone but she doesn't want to down grade.
I just paid cash for a small house. I have all the health issues and decided we don't need 2 car payments on cars that depreciate like rocks. The darts though my fondness for them are very quirky and only being made for three years their flaws will never be improved upon. They eat BCM the ddct trans is junk the 1.4 turbo is an expensive nightmare and the multi air brick is something out of science fiction magazine. I guess what I'm saying is I woke up and realized the money that's being spent on two car payments and [censored] coverage insurance could easily be going to someone that creates or offers value not something that loses value. My interest rate is on the higher side and the wife's dart is literally garbage. I do not trust it to leave the zip code. I do however trust mine for the most part. But if anyone thinks tbeyll go 250,000 your dreaming. If darts go that long it'll the exception not the rule. Also do to my health issues i am not working . Now I've gotten better enough that I'm going to go back to college which means I'll be broke for atleast a couple years. I'd rather not have a car payment and I'd rather have a car that when it breaks I can fix it. There is so much I can't fix on a dart because of special tool this and special tool that. But yea 2 car payments is dumb and I don't want to do it anymore. Also not saying credit is bad but yea I don't intend of needing it. I've got a house paid for I own everything in cash except the darts. And whichever dart stays will be the wife's car. If I had my way they'd both be gone but she doesn't want to down grade.
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Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
Originally Posted By: ram_man
To put to bed the reasoning behind dumping the dart.
I just paid cash for a small house. I have all the health issues and decided we don't need 2 car payments on cars that depreciate like rocks. The darts though my fondness for them are very quirky and only being made for three years their flaws will never be improved upon. They eat BCM the ddct trans is junk the 1.4 turbo is an expensive nightmare and the multi air brick is something out of science fiction magazine. I guess what I'm saying is I woke up and realized the money that's being spent on two car payments and [censored] coverage insurance could easily be going to someone that creates or offers value not something that loses value. My interest rate is on the higher side and the wife's dart is literally garbage. I do not trust it to leave the zip code. I do however trust mine for the most part. But if anyone thinks tbeyll go 250,000 your dreaming. If darts go that long it'll the exception not the rule. Also do to my health issues i am not working . Now I've gotten better enough that I'm going to go back to college which means I'll be broke for atleast a couple years. I'd rather not have a car payment and I'd rather have a car that when it breaks I can fix it. There is so much I can't fix on a dart because of special tool this and special tool that. But yea 2 car payments is dumb and I don't want to do it anymore. Also not saying credit is bad but yea I don't intend of needing it. I've got a house paid for I own everything in cash except the darts. And whichever dart stays will be the wife's car. If I had my way they'd both be gone but she doesn't want to down grade.
I think you're making a good choice.
If you buy one of these and drive it for a year or two, maybe sell it for what you paid for it and get something else. Financially speaking I should have just kept driving my Camry and not bought the Sonata. It's a great car, I'm letting my brother borrow it. But the Sonata is comfortable and with my back problems and the 20k+ miles a year I put on it, I'm happy with it, is very comfortable.
To put to bed the reasoning behind dumping the dart.
I just paid cash for a small house. I have all the health issues and decided we don't need 2 car payments on cars that depreciate like rocks. The darts though my fondness for them are very quirky and only being made for three years their flaws will never be improved upon. They eat BCM the ddct trans is junk the 1.4 turbo is an expensive nightmare and the multi air brick is something out of science fiction magazine. I guess what I'm saying is I woke up and realized the money that's being spent on two car payments and [censored] coverage insurance could easily be going to someone that creates or offers value not something that loses value. My interest rate is on the higher side and the wife's dart is literally garbage. I do not trust it to leave the zip code. I do however trust mine for the most part. But if anyone thinks tbeyll go 250,000 your dreaming. If darts go that long it'll the exception not the rule. Also do to my health issues i am not working . Now I've gotten better enough that I'm going to go back to college which means I'll be broke for atleast a couple years. I'd rather not have a car payment and I'd rather have a car that when it breaks I can fix it. There is so much I can't fix on a dart because of special tool this and special tool that. But yea 2 car payments is dumb and I don't want to do it anymore. Also not saying credit is bad but yea I don't intend of needing it. I've got a house paid for I own everything in cash except the darts. And whichever dart stays will be the wife's car. If I had my way they'd both be gone but she doesn't want to down grade.
I think you're making a good choice.
If you buy one of these and drive it for a year or two, maybe sell it for what you paid for it and get something else. Financially speaking I should have just kept driving my Camry and not bought the Sonata. It's a great car, I'm letting my brother borrow it. But the Sonata is comfortable and with my back problems and the 20k+ miles a year I put on it, I'm happy with it, is very comfortable.
Dave Ramsey sometimes gives [censored] advice.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: edhackett
It looks like it's been hit in the rear. The rear clip paint does not match the rest of the car. It's more noticeable in the picture of the passenger side. I'd check that out carefully. At that age and price, some damage would not be unusual.
Ed
I don't notice that I just looked again. Looks ok to me.....could be the lighting? I'm not sure. ..
Also is their any thing special I should know buying a car out of state? All I need is a title and a written bill of sale and I am good right?
Look into if your state or the seller's state requires notarization, and if they offer temp plates, and if you can get the temp plates beforehand (if you really like gambling.)
I bought cars from NC and did the research beforehand. The second time, the DMV denied me a temp plate so I asked for a supervisor and they made it work! You need a "reason" for a temp plate, I told them I was from out of state and couldn't legally get metal plates anyway, and was leaving with the car. That satisfied them.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
It looks like it's been hit in the rear. The rear clip paint does not match the rest of the car. It's more noticeable in the picture of the passenger side. I'd check that out carefully. At that age and price, some damage would not be unusual.
Ed
I don't notice that I just looked again. Looks ok to me.....could be the lighting? I'm not sure. ..
Also is their any thing special I should know buying a car out of state? All I need is a title and a written bill of sale and I am good right?
Look into if your state or the seller's state requires notarization, and if they offer temp plates, and if you can get the temp plates beforehand (if you really like gambling.)
I bought cars from NC and did the research beforehand. The second time, the DMV denied me a temp plate so I asked for a supervisor and they made it work! You need a "reason" for a temp plate, I told them I was from out of state and couldn't legally get metal plates anyway, and was leaving with the car. That satisfied them.
Dave Ramsey deals in absolutes; there are none. He uses rates that fit his formulas.
And the biggest thing he ignores is market timing, which is only everything.
For example, he puts buying a house low on priority and out to the future.
What if interest rates go up? What if home prices go up?
You just may be priced right out of the market, and rents will go up as well.
Renting guarantees you will never see you $$ again.
If you buy, and the value goes up, you might be able to refinance your house and pay off other debts while getting a tax break.
I salute you for buying the house.
But let's look at some numbers...
If you got a 4% home loan and you can get a 5% to 7% return on mutual fund investment (Ramsey oftentimes uses 12%) you are losing $$.
What if your house goes down?
This points out there are no absolutes, only different strategies.
FYI, I paid off our house in Silicon Valley but always invested in other financial vehicles as well.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Mr. Ramsey has helped lotsa people who have found themselves in debt.
Without meaning to offend anyone, many people in financial trouble (not all!) need to look at their spending habits and bad use of debt.
Mr. Ramsey and I agree on this.
Good luck on your purchase, if you decide to do so. Saturns were good cars back in the day.
I serviced a few for friends.
And the biggest thing he ignores is market timing, which is only everything.
For example, he puts buying a house low on priority and out to the future.
What if interest rates go up? What if home prices go up?
You just may be priced right out of the market, and rents will go up as well.
Renting guarantees you will never see you $$ again.
If you buy, and the value goes up, you might be able to refinance your house and pay off other debts while getting a tax break.
I salute you for buying the house.
But let's look at some numbers...
If you got a 4% home loan and you can get a 5% to 7% return on mutual fund investment (Ramsey oftentimes uses 12%) you are losing $$.
What if your house goes down?
This points out there are no absolutes, only different strategies.
FYI, I paid off our house in Silicon Valley but always invested in other financial vehicles as well.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Mr. Ramsey has helped lotsa people who have found themselves in debt.
Without meaning to offend anyone, many people in financial trouble (not all!) need to look at their spending habits and bad use of debt.
Mr. Ramsey and I agree on this.
Good luck on your purchase, if you decide to do so. Saturns were good cars back in the day.
I serviced a few for friends.
Originally Posted By: CT8
You make more bad decisions than I make.
You care to explain.
Only on bitog would you get disparaged for selling a car you owe money on and buying a car with cash since you'll be going back to colleg and your earning amount will drop as a result .. freaking amazing. I make such bad choices, yet my house is paid for I've beat cancer twice and I had enough money saved to do both of those things.......yea I make bad choices...... Oh and I definitely am making a bad choice by dropping a car that has a payment plus interest....in favor of a cheaper car I want work on.....yea absolutely stupid.....your comment with no substance is amazing to me. Shows your intelligence ....or lack there of.
You make more bad decisions than I make.
You care to explain.
Only on bitog would you get disparaged for selling a car you owe money on and buying a car with cash since you'll be going back to colleg and your earning amount will drop as a result .. freaking amazing. I make such bad choices, yet my house is paid for I've beat cancer twice and I had enough money saved to do both of those things.......yea I make bad choices...... Oh and I definitely am making a bad choice by dropping a car that has a payment plus interest....in favor of a cheaper car I want work on.....yea absolutely stupid.....your comment with no substance is amazing to me. Shows your intelligence ....or lack there of.
Originally Posted By: CT8
You make more bad decisions than I make.
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Dave Ramsey deals in absolutes; there are none. He uses rates that fit his formulas.
And the biggest thing he ignores is market timing, which is only everything.
For example, he puts buying a house low on priority and out to the future.
What if interest rates go up? What if home prices go up?
You just may be priced right out of the market, and rents will go up as well.
Renting guarantees you will never see you $$ again.
If you buy, and the value goes up, you might be able to refinance your house and pay off other debts while getting a tax break.
I salute you for buying the house.
But let's look at some numbers...
If you got a 4% home loan and you can get a 5% to 7% return on mutual fund investment (Ramsey oftentimes uses 12%) you are losing $$.
What if your house goes down?
This points out there are no absolutes, only different strategies.
FYI, I paid off our house in Silicon Valley but always invested in other financial vehicles as well.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Mr. Ramsey has helped lotsa people who have found themselves in debt.
Without meaning to offend anyone, many people in financial trouble (not all!) need to look at their spending habits and bad use of debt.
Mr. Ramsey and I agree on this.
Good luck on your purchase, if you decide to do so. Saturns were good cars back in the day.
I serviced a few for friends.
I understand that. I don't take his word for gospel . But the motto spend less than you make. Don't finance a car and have a savings and invest wisely are all good practices. I agree with not using credit cards and I don't use them I agree with buying most items in cash. I get what your saying and I don't disagree with you at all. But I think the guys basic message is a good one for a lot of people.
You make more bad decisions than I make.
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Dave Ramsey deals in absolutes; there are none. He uses rates that fit his formulas.
And the biggest thing he ignores is market timing, which is only everything.
For example, he puts buying a house low on priority and out to the future.
What if interest rates go up? What if home prices go up?
You just may be priced right out of the market, and rents will go up as well.
Renting guarantees you will never see you $$ again.
If you buy, and the value goes up, you might be able to refinance your house and pay off other debts while getting a tax break.
I salute you for buying the house.
But let's look at some numbers...
If you got a 4% home loan and you can get a 5% to 7% return on mutual fund investment (Ramsey oftentimes uses 12%) you are losing $$.
What if your house goes down?
This points out there are no absolutes, only different strategies.
FYI, I paid off our house in Silicon Valley but always invested in other financial vehicles as well.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Mr. Ramsey has helped lotsa people who have found themselves in debt.
Without meaning to offend anyone, many people in financial trouble (not all!) need to look at their spending habits and bad use of debt.
Mr. Ramsey and I agree on this.
Good luck on your purchase, if you decide to do so. Saturns were good cars back in the day.
I serviced a few for friends.
I understand that. I don't take his word for gospel . But the motto spend less than you make. Don't finance a car and have a savings and invest wisely are all good practices. I agree with not using credit cards and I don't use them I agree with buying most items in cash. I get what your saying and I don't disagree with you at all. But I think the guys basic message is a good one for a lot of people.
Dave tells people to go on "Rice and Beans... Beans and Rice" diet.
Sell your Dart and buy that Saturn if it helps your finances.
What are you studying in college ?
Sell your Dart and buy that Saturn if it helps your finances.
What are you studying in college ?
I guess what I am saying is, there are no absolutes. Mr. Ramsey speaks in absolutes and then uses numbers that fit his formulas.
If you take the example of taking a 4% home loan and using the other $$ to invest and get, say 7% over time, you are using the bank's $$ to work for you.
I invested $150K in an ETA less than 2 years ago; the value is $166K today. 15% return is super and not to be considered the norm.
Sounds good, right?
Well, if I had bought another property here in Silicon Valley, say for $800K that property would be worth waaaaay over a cool million right now.
And the renters would be making the payment for me!
Oops...
One thing I like about Mr. Ramsey is he looks hard at risk, which is huge.
I do disagree with how he mitagates that risk, however.
Balance, weed-hopper...
If you take the example of taking a 4% home loan and using the other $$ to invest and get, say 7% over time, you are using the bank's $$ to work for you.
I invested $150K in an ETA less than 2 years ago; the value is $166K today. 15% return is super and not to be considered the norm.
Sounds good, right?
Well, if I had bought another property here in Silicon Valley, say for $800K that property would be worth waaaaay over a cool million right now.
And the renters would be making the payment for me!
Oops...
One thing I like about Mr. Ramsey is he looks hard at risk, which is huge.
I do disagree with how he mitagates that risk, however.
Balance, weed-hopper...
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I personally like the advice of David Bach and his book, "The Automatic Millionaire" more so than David Ramsey.
As far as driving to buy a vehicle, I did it once and it kind of bit me in the rear but I bought it anyway since I really wanted that truck and they were not easy to find in that configuration.
I drove from southwest MO to St. Louis which was a four hour trip, to look at a 98 chevy K3500 single cab long bed with the 454/auto tranny. The truck looked good in the picture both inside and out other than they said that the hood had some paint issues and that they were having it re-painted.
I get there and look the truck over. It looks good and the re-painted hood looks good too. It had low mileage, new tires, and it drove nice. We get back and my fiance' notices that there seems to be some paint issue up on the roof next to the clearance lights. We look closer and you can tell there has been some body work done on the roof. My fiance' says lets go, don't buy this truck. I really want this truck so I buy it anyway.
I bring it home and get the roof looked at and fixed which cost me about $700. It turns out that something must have fallen on the roof and when they had repainted the roof, they didn't take out the metal clips that the screws for the clearance light lenses screwed into and painted over the top of the clips and that the vibration over time cracked the paint over the clips and let water underneath the paint which continued to crack the paint.
Later when I had to replace the driver's side window regulator, I discovered that the door had been repaired because you could see all of the holes in the door where they must have pulled out a pretty large dent. You could tell that the entire truck had been re-painted at some point.
In hindsight, I probably should have passed on the truck because I did have to fix some other stuff over the years but it's been a good truck for the most part. I have had more people try to buy this truck off of me than any other vehicle I have ever owned. I've even had one person leave their name and number under the windshield wiper wanting to know if I wanted to sell it.
I would probably still drive to go buy a vehicle but I would be more choosy than I was on that time.
As far as driving to buy a vehicle, I did it once and it kind of bit me in the rear but I bought it anyway since I really wanted that truck and they were not easy to find in that configuration.
I drove from southwest MO to St. Louis which was a four hour trip, to look at a 98 chevy K3500 single cab long bed with the 454/auto tranny. The truck looked good in the picture both inside and out other than they said that the hood had some paint issues and that they were having it re-painted.
I get there and look the truck over. It looks good and the re-painted hood looks good too. It had low mileage, new tires, and it drove nice. We get back and my fiance' notices that there seems to be some paint issue up on the roof next to the clearance lights. We look closer and you can tell there has been some body work done on the roof. My fiance' says lets go, don't buy this truck. I really want this truck so I buy it anyway.
I bring it home and get the roof looked at and fixed which cost me about $700. It turns out that something must have fallen on the roof and when they had repainted the roof, they didn't take out the metal clips that the screws for the clearance light lenses screwed into and painted over the top of the clips and that the vibration over time cracked the paint over the clips and let water underneath the paint which continued to crack the paint.
Later when I had to replace the driver's side window regulator, I discovered that the door had been repaired because you could see all of the holes in the door where they must have pulled out a pretty large dent. You could tell that the entire truck had been re-painted at some point.
In hindsight, I probably should have passed on the truck because I did have to fix some other stuff over the years but it's been a good truck for the most part. I have had more people try to buy this truck off of me than any other vehicle I have ever owned. I've even had one person leave their name and number under the windshield wiper wanting to know if I wanted to sell it.
I would probably still drive to go buy a vehicle but I would be more choosy than I was on that time.
Originally Posted By: MONKEYMAN
Night and day improvement with the Elantra and I have the stripped down model. So if you do get it I hope it works out, but it seems like a step backwards. Being out of debt would be plus. Good luck!
I think with the numbers and lower expense, a used elantra may be the next cheap car to buy as beaters in place of saturns. the 2011 up were good models.
Although i've owned saturns for years, i think they are about played out.
Night and day improvement with the Elantra and I have the stripped down model. So if you do get it I hope it works out, but it seems like a step backwards. Being out of debt would be plus. Good luck!
I think with the numbers and lower expense, a used elantra may be the next cheap car to buy as beaters in place of saturns. the 2011 up were good models.
Although i've owned saturns for years, i think they are about played out.
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