^^^^^
Yikes !!!!
Yikes !!!!
Fram Titanium 20k mile oil filters at AAP....
- Thread starter bbhero
- Start date
Concur. We punched louvers for airflow unidirectionally as well. Punching for lowest cost manufacture, directional flow for least airflow resistance (radius bends vs. sharp edges). Used on genset enclosures for air intake, and guards for thermal and rotating hazards.
ZeeOSix - is this incomplete stamping indicative of certain manufacturers? A quality manufacturer subject to Statistical Process Control (Six Sigma, whatever you want to call it), wouldn't allow these off the shop floor.
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
ZeeOSix - is this incomplete stamping indicative of certain manufacturers? A quality manufacturer subject to Statistical Process Control (Six Sigma, whatever you want to call it), wouldn't allow these off the shop floor.
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Bottom line for anyone buying oil filters with louvers, it would be good practice to inspect them before deciding to buy and/or use the filter. I always look, and have seen plenty of misformed louvers on the shelves.
ZeeOSix - is this incomplete stamping indicative of certain manufacturers? A quality manufacturer subject to Statistical Process Control (Six Sigma, whatever you want to call it), wouldn't allow these off the shop floor.
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Bottom line for anyone buying oil filters with louvers, it would be good practice to inspect them before deciding to buy and/or use the filter. I always look, and have seen plenty of misformed louvers on the shelves.
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Concur. We punched louvers for airflow unidirectionally as well. Punching for lowest cost manufacture, directional flow for least airflow resistance (radius bends vs. sharp edges). Used on genset enclosures for air intake, and guards for thermal and rotating hazards.
Thanks, we appear to be looking at this from the same perspective.
I don't have a problem with them being a defect in manufacturing but they look awful "uniform" to be an accident or oversight ( and I cant envision a die set wearing so uniform then actually stamping without malfunctioning)
Then to get through all the quality and physical checks from raw material through packaging with the entire run and nobody noticed?
No customers called back and a quality audit resulted?
Possible? yeah but on the high side of very unlikely for a branded product. ( might be different for a knock off)
But without knowing the designers filter path and CFD it cannot be said for sure either way.
I don't suppose anyone ever contacted the OEM and asked what the purpose for the slits was before jumping to conclusions? nah
Concur. We punched louvers for airflow unidirectionally as well. Punching for lowest cost manufacture, directional flow for least airflow resistance (radius bends vs. sharp edges). Used on genset enclosures for air intake, and guards for thermal and rotating hazards.
Thanks, we appear to be looking at this from the same perspective.
I don't have a problem with them being a defect in manufacturing but they look awful "uniform" to be an accident or oversight ( and I cant envision a die set wearing so uniform then actually stamping without malfunctioning)
Then to get through all the quality and physical checks from raw material through packaging with the entire run and nobody noticed?
No customers called back and a quality audit resulted?
Possible? yeah but on the high side of very unlikely for a branded product. ( might be different for a knock off)
But without knowing the designers filter path and CFD it cannot be said for sure either way.
I don't suppose anyone ever contacted the OEM and asked what the purpose for the slits was before jumping to conclusions? nah
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Certainly have no problem accepting that but has the same due diligence been done to determine that a legitimate product was being compared ( and not a counterfeit) as has been gone into on other threads about spark plugs?
Also, is the slit opening still within the OEM range of tolerance and doesn't affect the design performance criteria?
So far nothing has been presented but pictures clearly illustrating a visual difference in 2 products but nothing factual or verified showing its legit, within tolerance, creating adverse effects or anything else.
Without checking all of those items listed ( and maybe a few others too) we are left with unsubstantiated commentary and unfounded conclusions based on what peoples perceptions are based solely on a visual look see without all the facts.
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Certainly have no problem accepting that but has the same due diligence been done to determine that a legitimate product was being compared ( and not a counterfeit) as has been gone into on other threads about spark plugs?
Also, is the slit opening still within the OEM range of tolerance and doesn't affect the design performance criteria?
So far nothing has been presented but pictures clearly illustrating a visual difference in 2 products but nothing factual or verified showing its legit, within tolerance, creating adverse effects or anything else.
Without checking all of those items listed ( and maybe a few others too) we are left with unsubstantiated commentary and unfounded conclusions based on what peoples perceptions are based solely on a visual look see without all the facts.
I have, of yet, seen no evidence whatsoever showing that louvers are an inferior design, or really that any of that sort of thing matters at all. If someone wants to do some flow testing, fine, but until then I'm going to assume the actual engineers know what they're doing.
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Certainly have no problem accepting that but has the same due diligence been done to determine that a legitimate product was being compared ( and not a counterfeit) as has been gone into on other threads about spark plugs?
Also, is the slit opening still within the OEM range of tolerance and doesn't affect the design performance criteria?
So far nothing has been presented but pictures clearly illustrating a visual difference in 2 products but nothing factual or verified showing its legit, within tolerance, creating adverse effects or anything else.
Without checking all of those items listed ( and maybe a few others too) we are left with unsubstantiated commentary and unfounded conclusions based on what peoples perceptions are based solely on a visual look see without all the facts.
All of the filters I've seen with closed up louvers on the local store shelves were not counterfeit. It sounds like you don't believe that legitimate filters on the shelf can have misformed and closed off louvers, just like some people here don't believe certain filters can suffer from torn media (even after hundreds have been reported/posted in this forum) ... unless they see it with their own eyes.
And what do you think the "OEM range of tolerance" is? OEM specs and tolerances of any kind can never be found from the OEM (not even a simple efficiency spec), and are never divulged by OEMs. If anything, center tube design would fall into the total max delta-p specs. Closed up louvers can certainly cause increased delta-p. But again, malformed louvers is a manufacturing issue, not a design issue. If two filters of the same brand and part number have a huge disparity in the way the louvers are formed, then it's clearly an inconstant manufacturing and QA problem.
Like I always say ... make your own decisions on what to use. If someone wants to use filters with nearly totally closed louvers then knock yourself, lol. It's not rocket science to look down the center tube to see if the louvers are opened up, or closed down - so yeah, "perception based solely on a visual look" is the best bet. That's all I need in order to decide if I want to use a filter with louvers or not.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Misformed louvers have been seen in more than one brand of oil filters. The first post where I showed bad vs good formed louvers, those were two filters of the same brand and part number ... just made on different days and/or on different machines. Oil filter manufacturing can be sloppy, as can be seen by the many cut & posts just in this forum alone.
Certainly have no problem accepting that but has the same due diligence been done to determine that a legitimate product was being compared ( and not a counterfeit) as has been gone into on other threads about spark plugs?
Also, is the slit opening still within the OEM range of tolerance and doesn't affect the design performance criteria?
So far nothing has been presented but pictures clearly illustrating a visual difference in 2 products but nothing factual or verified showing its legit, within tolerance, creating adverse effects or anything else.
Without checking all of those items listed ( and maybe a few others too) we are left with unsubstantiated commentary and unfounded conclusions based on what peoples perceptions are based solely on a visual look see without all the facts.
All of the filters I've seen with closed up louvers on the local store shelves were not counterfeit. It sounds like you don't believe that legitimate filters on the shelf can have misformed and closed off louvers, just like some people here don't believe certain filters can suffer from torn media (even after hundreds have been reported/posted in this forum) ... unless they see it with their own eyes.
And what do you think the "OEM range of tolerance" is? OEM specs and tolerances of any kind can never be found from the OEM (not even a simple efficiency spec), and are never divulged by OEMs. If anything, center tube design would fall into the total max delta-p specs. Closed up louvers can certainly cause increased delta-p. But again, malformed louvers is a manufacturing issue, not a design issue. If two filters of the same brand and part number have a huge disparity in the way the louvers are formed, then it's clearly an inconstant manufacturing and QA problem.
Like I always say ... make your own decisions on what to use. If someone wants to use filters with nearly totally closed louvers then knock yourself, lol. It's not rocket science to look down the center tube to see if the louvers are opened up, or closed down - so yeah, "perception based solely on a visual look" is the best bet. That's all I need in order to decide if I want to use a filter with louvers or not.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
I have, of yet, seen no evidence whatsoever showing that louvers are an inferior design, or really that any of that sort of thing matters at all. If someone wants to do some flow testing, fine, but until then I'm going to assume the actual engineers know what they're doing.
Nobody has said that louvers are an inferior design. What's being said is that badly formed louvers (as shown in the photos) can present a problem. There are well formed louvers, and there are some badly formed louvers ... avoid the latter.
I have, of yet, seen no evidence whatsoever showing that louvers are an inferior design, or really that any of that sort of thing matters at all. If someone wants to do some flow testing, fine, but until then I'm going to assume the actual engineers know what they're doing.
Nobody has said that louvers are an inferior design. What's being said is that badly formed louvers (as shown in the photos) can present a problem. There are well formed louvers, and there are some badly formed louvers ... avoid the latter.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
If.
Unless there's something wrong with the machine, or the feedstock, that if isn't going to happen. You know that there's about the same chance that the machine that stamps holes has a problem as the machine that stamps louvers, right? A filter with holes in the core could have the same issues.
No company would sell a filter that could lead to engine damage, the legal liability for doing so would ensure they'd be out of business quickly. The filter is fine, and will work fine. They'd have to be absolute idiots to sell it otherwise, and I don't think any company that's been in business that long, and sold that much product are idiots.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
If.
Unless there's something wrong with the machine, or the feedstock, that if isn't going to happen. You know that there's about the same chance that the machine that stamps holes has a problem as the machine that stamps louvers, right? A filter with holes in the core could have the same issues.
No company would sell a filter that could lead to engine damage, the legal liability for doing so would ensure they'd be out of business quickly. The filter is fine, and will work fine. They'd have to be absolute idiots to sell it otherwise, and I don't think any company that's been in business that long, and sold that much product are idiots.
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. ...
How tiny to make a significant difference? Obviously there's a limit, but the slits might not need to be as large as the louver-hating faction of BitOG likes to imagine.
... If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. ...
How tiny to make a significant difference? Obviously there's a limit, but the slits might not need to be as large as the louver-hating faction of BitOG likes to imagine.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
If.
Unless there's something wrong with the machine, or the feedstock, that if isn't going to happen. You know that there's about the same chance that the machine that stamps holes has a problem as the machine that stamps louvers, right? A filter with holes in the core could have the same issues.
No company would sell a filter that could lead to engine damage, the legal liability for doing so would ensure they'd be out of business quickly. The filter is fine, and will work fine. They'd have to be absolute idiots to sell it otherwise, and I don't think any company that's been in business that long, and sold that much product are idiots.
"If" and "Unless" have been proven to exist many times. And filters with closed louvers are sold ... they are on store shelves if you care to do some looking. Are you denying that they exist for sale just because you think no company would ever sell such ill manufactured products? ... dream on, it happens.
We have never seen any center tubes with holes that have closed off holes. That's not even a valid comparison.
A filter with choked down louvers probably won't damage an engine enough for anyone to know driving around. But if they are choked down too much the filter's bypass valve will be open way more than it should, which can cause lots of dirty oil to bypass the media and could cause increase engine wear. If anyone is into that, then just ignore closed down louvers and use them, lol.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CR94
I suspect louvers don't have to be opened as wide as some people imagine in order to be an insignificant restriction, compared to the media and the exit pipe. That's not to say there haven't been a few that were insufficiently opened.
Louver openings are one of several potential issues that cartridge filters eliminate.
Honestly, it seems one of the things people on here jump on without any evidence that it makes a difference. Much like filter endcaps.
If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. You want a filter that is running in bypass most of the time?
If.
Unless there's something wrong with the machine, or the feedstock, that if isn't going to happen. You know that there's about the same chance that the machine that stamps holes has a problem as the machine that stamps louvers, right? A filter with holes in the core could have the same issues.
No company would sell a filter that could lead to engine damage, the legal liability for doing so would ensure they'd be out of business quickly. The filter is fine, and will work fine. They'd have to be absolute idiots to sell it otherwise, and I don't think any company that's been in business that long, and sold that much product are idiots.
"If" and "Unless" have been proven to exist many times. And filters with closed louvers are sold ... they are on store shelves if you care to do some looking. Are you denying that they exist for sale just because you think no company would ever sell such ill manufactured products? ... dream on, it happens.
We have never seen any center tubes with holes that have closed off holes. That's not even a valid comparison.
A filter with choked down louvers probably won't damage an engine enough for anyone to know driving around. But if they are choked down too much the filter's bypass valve will be open way more than it should, which can cause lots of dirty oil to bypass the media and could cause increase engine wear. If anyone is into that, then just ignore closed down louvers and use them, lol.
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. ...
How tiny to make a significant difference? Obviously there's a limit, but the slits might not need to be as large as the louver-hating faction of BitOG likes to imagine.
Agreed, who knows exactly where the limit is. But for sure, if the louvers are opened up well by a visual inspection, then that's better than nothing. I will chose more open louvers over closed down louver any day.
Simple question ... would you use any of these oil filters ... or would you find one with more open louvers and use that instead? If the answer is yes you would use these, then you're braver than me, or don't care about your equipment.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-37311-45281-purolator_boss_bad_louvers.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-37311-45282-bad_louvers.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-37311-45283-really_bad_louvers_closed.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... If the louvers are choked down to nearly a tiny slit, it can make a difference in the delta-p across the filter. ...
How tiny to make a significant difference? Obviously there's a limit, but the slits might not need to be as large as the louver-hating faction of BitOG likes to imagine.
Agreed, who knows exactly where the limit is. But for sure, if the louvers are opened up well by a visual inspection, then that's better than nothing. I will chose more open louvers over closed down louver any day.
Simple question ... would you use any of these oil filters ... or would you find one with more open louvers and use that instead? If the answer is yes you would use these, then you're braver than me, or don't care about your equipment.
I think you've found a few examples out of millions and extrapolated that to an entire design that many, many millions of people likely drive with for billions of miles collectively with no problems.
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Originally Posted by littlehulkster
I think you've found a few examples out of millions and extrapolated that to an entire design that many, many millions of people likely drive for billions of miles with no problems.
Yes, it's a relatively rare issue ... but it does exist. If you care about your stuff, you'd be wise to look at any filter with louvers and make sure they aren't really choked down like shown in the example photos.
Show me where I've "extrapolated that to an entire design" and have said louvers are a bad design. I'm OK with louvers ... IF they are formed well. I've said that many times.
Fact is ... badly formed louvers can exist, and I'll always look at how open they are before mounting the filter on any of my vehicles.
I think you've found a few examples out of millions and extrapolated that to an entire design that many, many millions of people likely drive for billions of miles with no problems.
Yes, it's a relatively rare issue ... but it does exist. If you care about your stuff, you'd be wise to look at any filter with louvers and make sure they aren't really choked down like shown in the example photos.
Show me where I've "extrapolated that to an entire design" and have said louvers are a bad design. I'm OK with louvers ... IF they are formed well. I've said that many times.
Fact is ... badly formed louvers can exist, and I'll always look at how open they are before mounting the filter on any of my vehicles.
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