Ford AWD garbage?

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Key word is "rental car" so tires are always questionable

Ford's Intelligent AWD system is more capable than you think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiv-bWbLIo&t


We used to take our Explorer Sport to the beach … it did fine in sand since that setting allowed a little bit of wheel spin … not like the 3.5L ecoboost relied on much RPM to make torque …
4WD is preferable in sand but this was still better than 2WD …
Ran 275’s too …

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



I've gotta agree with how well the Jeep system works, I have been thoroughly impressed having only to paddle shift it to bog it down some due to the throttle response when getting in a bind. I imagine that would be even worse in the trackhawk. Generally, they just hook-up though, finding traction wherever it can be found.


3 wheels on greased ice, one wheel on pavement, and it's going to drive forward. LOL.

Yeah, not sure why it would not?


You see this video?


This comprehensive Jeep one has that same test at the end:



Thanks for sharing the video. Very interesting indeed.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: madRiver
That video clearly depicts exactly what we encountered with Ford garbage Awd. Pretty sad they pass that off as decent across many cuvs. My suspicion our Subaru Legacy with pure mechanical bliss Awd lsd rear would have driven out drama free. It took 2 good people who stopped and myself to do what AWD could not and push.

I guess you also learned your lesson in turning around to keep the heavy end on the known good surface. We got stuck for a few minutes turning around on a cottage road once when I dropped the front end of our old 4wd Tracker into a small hidden ditch same as you did...
Now I always stick the back end into the snow bank or whatever and preferably up hill when we turn around in a tight spot in the snow.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: MaximaGuy
Everything from Ford is garbage - they only survive because of the F lineup.
One day that lead will go away and they are toast.

Ford really really sucks.. Chrysler is not far behind as well.

They have downright stop competing in the SUV segment, there Explorers are far and few being sold.


I don't think that everything Ford builds is "garbage," but the company only builds a handful of vehicles that I'd consider owning:
Fiesta ST
Focus ST
Mustang GT Performance Package 1 and 2
GT350
That's it; although I may look at the new Bronco if it truly has off-road capability(even so, I'm MUCH more likely to go with another Wrangler- JK or JL, depending on my bank balance).

 

[supton]

Heh, I know my 2010 Tundra, with part time 4WD, would fail that roller test. Open diffs front and rear, and I don't think it's TC is capable of clamping the rear caliper hard enough to get the job done.

I think though it'd pass the hill climb. Equal traction available to each rear tire, thus as one long as one didn't hammer it, it'd probably pull with little muss or fuss.

Now attempting to go around a corner in 4WD... different story.

I wonder. These tests, makes me wonder if a FWD vehicle would not "test" exactly the same. Yet AWD definitely does something good, at least on level ground.

 

[HemiHawk]

Originally Posted By: MaximaGuy
Everything from Ford is garbage - they only survive because of the F lineup.
One day that lead will go away and they are toast.

Ford really really sucks.. Chrysler is not far behind as well.

They have downright stop competing in the SUV segment, there Explorers are far and few being sold.


Ford vehicles are fine. How have they "stopped competing" in the SUV market? The edge is terrific, the explorer sells just fine. I only looked at a couple other large 3 SUVs, but didn't see any that sold better in 2017 or 2016. Even if there is one, their numbers are strong.

Ford Explorer sales numbers for the past 4 years.
2017 271.131
2016 248.507
2015 249.251
2014 209.994

 

[meep]

I CALL COMPLETE BOGUS ON THAT VIDEO. To my eye it is manipulated.

1. all of the "FWD+" AWD systems require a certain amount of front axle slip before they engage. Watch carefully at the front wheel speed of the test vehicles. They are not revving as high as the subaru example. So the rear's are not being encouraged to engage in on the other vehicles. With the subaru, it appears to have greater front wheel speed, which prods the rear axle into greater activity.

2. not even an old school 4x4 is one-wheel-drive. without a locking diff or limited slip, at best a 4x4 guarantees 2 driven wheels. So a test of AWD which lets one rear wheel slip can't just be attributed to front-rear distribution, that is also a limited slip / rear traction control / LSD thing. The video misrepresents "AWD" capability by not explaining this.

Dealership-produced video.

-Mike

 

[ford46guy]

My Lexus is AWD but has horrible tires(Ironman iMove Gen2). They may be summer tires, they feel very hard, relatively new.

It is almost useless in the snow. Oh, front and back spin, and it has VSC/TC. It is advertised as an AWD 70R/30F split that can become 50/50 if needed.

I think though if those tires were put on anything it would be a lost cause. I tried the explorer afterwards with the LTX and the cars are similar weight (Lexus is just under 4k lbs), stopping distance 1/2ed. And I'm not crediting the ABS either!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: meep
I CALL COMPLETE BOGUS ON THAT VIDEO. To my eye it is manipulated.

1. all of the "FWD+" AWD systems require a certain amount of front axle slip before they engage. Watch carefully at the front wheel speed of the test vehicles. They are not revving as high as the subaru example. So the rear's are not being encouraged to engage in on the other vehicles. With the subaru, it appears to have greater front wheel speed, which prods the rear axle into greater activity.


I saw a similar remark in the comments. While that could certainly be the case, you may also be seeing the effects of Drive By Wire, where the throttle is controlled by the PCM not your foot.

Originally Posted By: meep
2. not even an old school 4x4 is one-wheel-drive. without a locking diff or limited slip, at best a 4x4 guarantees 2 driven wheels. So a test of AWD which lets one rear wheel slip can't just be attributed to front-rear distribution, that is also a limited slip / rear traction control / LSD thing. The video misrepresents "AWD" capability by not explaining this.

Dealership-produced video.

-Mike


Rather, I'd say they are promoting the Subaru system and didn't find it necessary (or advantageous) to explain that.

My takeaway was that simply the traction control system employed by Subaru and Jeep has enough torque distribution (both are not FWD-biased systems like the other vehicles) that they can move power to the wheel with traction effectively by using the brakes.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: supton
Heh, I know my 2010 Tundra, with part time 4WD, would fail that roller test. Open diffs front and rear, and I don't think it's TC is capable of clamping the rear caliper hard enough to get the job done.

I think though it'd pass the hill climb. Equal traction available to each rear tire, thus as one long as one didn't hammer it, it'd probably pull with little muss or fuss.

Now attempting to go around a corner in 4WD... different story.

I wonder. These tests, makes me wonder if a FWD vehicle would not "test" exactly the same. Yet AWD definitely does something good, at least on level ground.

Do you have a manual parking brake still in the Tundra? If you put that on at a reasonable force it helps distribute power to both rear tires. On my tractor you can lock the rear diff manually, or brake each rear wheel individually, or link the pedals and brake the rears together. I find its easier and effective just to dab the linked brakes when one tire spins up than to use the diff lock.

 

[meep]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: meep
I CALL COMPLETE BOGUS ON THAT VIDEO. To my eye it is manipulated.

1. all of the "FWD+" AWD systems require a certain amount of front axle slip before they engage. Watch carefully at the front wheel speed of the test vehicles. They are not revving as high as the subaru example. So the rear's are not being encouraged to engage in on the other vehicles. With the subaru, it appears to have greater front wheel speed, which prods the rear axle into greater activity.


I saw a similar remark in the comments. While that could certainly be the case, you may also be seeing the effects of Drive By Wire, where the throttle is controlled by the PCM not your foot.

Originally Posted By: meep
2. not even an old school 4x4 is one-wheel-drive. without a locking diff or limited slip, at best a 4x4 guarantees 2 driven wheels. So a test of AWD which lets one rear wheel slip can't just be attributed to front-rear distribution, that is also a limited slip / rear traction control / LSD thing. The video misrepresents "AWD" capability by not explaining this.

Dealership-produced video.

-Mike


Rather, I'd say they are promoting the Subaru system and didn't find it necessary (or advantageous) to explain that.

My takeaway was that simply the traction control system employed by Subaru and Jeep has enough torque distribution (both are not FWD-biased systems like the other vehicles) that they can move power to the wheel with traction effectively by using the brakes.


Agree on all accounts. DBW is an unknown factor here.

Oh-- "TORQUE STEER" also ridiculous in this test.

I will add the comments about torque steer against the Ford Escape. Ludicrous. If the front wheels are on rollers, there is no effective torque against the drivetrain. No potential for torque steer, at all. However, there IS effective yaw from uneven traction in the rear, and any vehicle that has traction on one side will yaw. Did you catch the steering wheel drama? That was a great exaggerated act behind the wheel.

I give the video zero credibility.

-m

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: supton
Heh, I know my 2010 Tundra, with part time 4WD, would fail that roller test. Open diffs front and rear, and I don't think it's TC is capable of clamping the rear caliper hard enough to get the job done.

I think though it'd pass the hill climb. Equal traction available to each rear tire, thus as one long as one didn't hammer it, it'd probably pull with little muss or fuss.

Now attempting to go around a corner in 4WD... different story.

I wonder. These tests, makes me wonder if a FWD vehicle would not "test" exactly the same. Yet AWD definitely does something good, at least on level ground.

Do you have a manual parking brake still in the Tundra? If you put that on at a reasonable force it helps distribute power to both rear tires. On my tractor you can lock the rear diff manually, or brake each rear wheel individually, or link the pedals and brake the rears together. I find its easier and effective just to dab the linked brakes when one tire spins up than to use the diff lock.


Forgot about that old trick. Have not tried that, maybe next time I play in the snow.

I do know that the TC system cuts power, and makes a clicking sound--and really does not thing. I think the tires are too heavy. Once they break loose, it takes "a lot" of brake to stop the spin.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: meep


Agree on all accounts. DBW is an unknown factor here.

Oh-- "TORQUE STEER" also ridiculous in this test.

I will add the comments about torque steer against the Ford Escape. Ludicrous. If the front wheels are on rollers, there is no effective torque against the drivetrain. No potential for torque steer, at all. However, there IS effective yaw from uneven traction in the rear, and any vehicle that has traction on one side will yaw. Did you catch the steering wheel drama? That was a great exaggerated act behind the wheel.

I give the video zero credibility.

-m


Yeah, that was ridiculous, LOL

 

[WANG]

Another video...

 

[HM12460]

So back in April when I bought the Terrain (below in signature line) the salesman told me that GM "obtained" their AWD technology from Subaru. I started laughing at him and he was a bit offended. It did do quite well this winter in the snow.

 

[Surestick]

The AWD Ford Taurus I drive for work does really well in the snow, as well as my personal Subaru.
It's let down a bit by the over-aggressive traction/stability control and the drive-by-wire throttle with a half second delay built in but neither are the fault of the AWD system.

 

[UG_Passat]

Subaru owners are probably the biggest trolls on the internet.

In the Nor'easter, there was this guy in a Subaru legacy, I couldn't pass the guy up a hill because the mighty Symmetrical AWD system was taking up both lanes, as he was struggling for traction, so the AWD system didn't know where to transfer power, compared to me in my "inferior" FWD-biased Haldex system with winter tires on its 3rd season, have no issues with traction in some packed snow.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Subaru owners are probably the biggest trolls on the internet.

In the Nor'easter, there was this guy in a Subaru legacy, I couldn't pass the guy up a hill because the mighty Symmetrical AWD system was taking up both lanes, as he was struggling for traction, so the AWD system didn't know where to transfer power, compared to me in my "inferior" FWD-biased Haldex system with winter tires on its 3rd season, have no issues with traction in some packed snow.


I'm willing to bet the Legacy had bald all seasons on it. Snow driving comes down to traction. I used to live in a hilly part of Syracuse and the city would go days without plowing. My FWD Focus always got me home with snow tires, often passing stuck AWD vehicles.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: WANG


Another video...


That was good … thanks !

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Subaru owners are probably the biggest trolls on the internet.

In the Nor'easter, there was this guy in a Subaru legacy, I couldn't pass the guy up a hill because the mighty Symmetrical AWD system was taking up both lanes, as he was struggling for traction, so the AWD system didn't know where to transfer power, compared to me in my "inferior" FWD-biased Haldex system with winter tires on its 3rd season, have no issues with traction in some packed snow.


I'm willing to bet the Legacy had bald all seasons on it. Snow driving comes down to traction. I used to live in a hilly part of Syracuse and the city would go days without plowing. My FWD Focus always got me home with snow tires, often passing stuck AWD vehicles.

99% of Subaru owners in Colorado have at BEST all season tires.
Even with snow tires, here in the Rockies going uphill they struggle because, you know, engine+CVT.
Also, they are first in the ditch, because, you know, AWD, Subaru, I can do anything.