Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump failures?

[Fordiesel69]

I thought I was very well informed of the ford internal water pumps used on the 3.5/3.7L engines in lincoln / ford / mazda sedans and SUV's. I am finding out there must be other failure modes that I was unaware of that makes this a very mandatory and urgent change out.

The water pump has a weep hole that will leak coolant out, to an external block channel and if you see this, its time to get it towed in for a change. Also if coolant mixes with the oil you can usually get it towed in for immediate repair, then flush the oil. This is why checking oil every fill up is so important with these engines.

However the third failure mode seems to be NO COOLANT LOSS and the pulley comes disengauged with the timing chain. How does this happen without a coolant leak?

I have been inside these engines and the timing chain and its tensioner components are about as rock solid as they get. When these are changed out with the water pump there is virtually no wear seen on them. So this leads me to belive that it is the water pump failing and tilting the sprocket.

This explorer has just over 100k on it. Slipped 3 teeth is what his scope shows. How does this happen at 100k?


2013 Ford Taurs Police, 190K, 900 idle hours. At auction it stated engine inop - needs water pump. Oil was nice and dark, coolant was in the middle, and yet the engine was seized up. Probably jumped time as well with no water in the oil.

 

[dnewton3]

I find that very hard to believe; skipping three teeth because the pump shaft is that much "tilted".

If the shaft of the water pump can "tilt" so much as to put so much slack in that the chain that the hydraulic tensioner can't accommodate the problem, then that would indicate a severe and significant amount of "tilt" of the shaft. That in turn would show the bearings to be grossly worn out and it's difficult to conceive that the shaft seals would still hold coolant with that much "play" in the shaft position.

I do have a theory. It's not unheard of for these pumps to fail before 100k miles. Perhaps someone was in there before to replace a pump and didn't put the timing set together properly. Now they've unloaded the vehicle due to a bad r/r pump job. Note that in the video he never took the timing cover off; so he's only theorizing that the timing is off (he's very smart; I do watch his channel). But as he noted, until there is physical/visual verification, it's not proven yet; he mused about who would pay for the teardown/inspection in his comments.

 

[KCJeep]

That strikes me more as a one off or oddity of some sort. If this was a common thing on Ford's we certainly would have heard of it in spades by now.

The 3.5 water pump is a real thing, but if regarded as a 100k (admittedly annoying) maintenance item actual issues aren't likely IMO. I'm aware of many well beyond that mileage on the original pump. And yes, I've heard of a few that didn't make it to 100k, but it's not common.

 

[D60]

No input but to say I think these should be regarded as 100k mandatory interval. Others claim not and I think they're crazy, unless it's a beater and you just don't care. Just drive it off a cliff when the milkshake occurs.....

But yeah, maybe someone did the timing set here and screwed it up.

 

[loneryder]

They did well to get that many miles out of it.

 

[D60]

They did well to get that many miles out of it.

To be clear I think the '13 police edition with 190k of which the OP speaks was a different vehicle -- presumably a personal observation of the OP

The subject of the vid is a '17 with 106k? IIRC?

Might be nice if OP could clarify. Post #1 could be more clear.

 

[Snagglefoot]

So if you wanted a 5 th Gen Explorer, would you forego the V-6 in favour of one of the Ecoboost 4’s? The 2.3 Ecoboost sounds interesting and is in a lot of Fords.

 

[Fordiesel69]

Yes I did put two in the original post. One I saw in person was the 13 model year tuaurus police, and the second was the explorer. I dont like to post questions like this unless I see it with my eyes.

So that makes sense if someone has been in there before. The real world like our state sees out of these water pumps is 150 to 200K miles. After that its just luck.

I have 202k on mine with original pump, dads went out at 154K, and we have one in storage with 150k ish with its factory. There is a HUGE correlation with idle hrs. Mine and the one in storage has 200 up to 422 idle hrs. Dads has 3000 hrs, hence why it failed.

 

[Dave9]

Yes I did put two in the original post. One I saw in person was the 13 model year tuaurus police, and the second was the explorer. I dont like to post questions like this unless I see it with my eyes.

So that makes sense if someone has been in there before. The real world like our state sees out of these water pumps is 150 to 200K miles. After that its just luck.

I have 202k on mine with original pump, dads went out at 154K, and we have one in storage with 150k ish with its factory. There is a HUGE correlation with idle hrs. Mine and the one in storage has 200 up to 422 idle hrs. Dads has 3000 hrs, hence why it failed.

I'm not so sure that I agree about huge correlation with idle hrs, other than that is addt'l wear that doesn't add mileage to the odometer. Certain LEO vehicles may have also been driven hard. Maybe all are, I mean compared to a civilian owner who is stuck with the consequences.

 

[350Rocket]

That strikes me more as a one off or oddity of some sort. If this was a common thing on Ford's we certainly would have heard of it in spades by now.

The 3.5 water pump is a real thing, but if regarded as a 100k (admittedly annoying) maintenance item actual issues aren't likely IMO. I'm aware of many well beyond that mileage on the original pump. And yes, I've heard of a few that didn't make it to 100k, but it's not common.

I think it would be more than annoying. It's a $3000+ job at a shop and even a lot of licensed mechanics aren't willing to do it...not exactly like a $1000 timing belt job.
My families 2010 failed at over 200k and even that made them think that maybe they shouldn't have given ford another chance. It mechanically totalled this rust free car (before COVID - if after it might have seemed financially worth it because of the price of cars).
It's definitely an oddity either way, most of them go over 200k but it's an inevitable failure and if you value manufacturers building repairable vehicles then not buying anything with this design is a smart idea.
Since almost every vehicle I get has 200k when I first get it, I won't buy junk like these things.

 

[KCJeep]

I think it would be more than annoying. It's a $3000+ job at a shop and even a lot of licensed mechanics aren't willing to do it...not exactly like a $1000 timing belt job.
My families 2010 failed at over 200k and even that made them think that maybe they shouldn't have given ford another chance. It mechanically totalled this rust free car (before COVID - if after it might have seemed financially worth it because of the price of cars).
It's definitely an oddity either way, most of them go over 200k but it's an inevitable failure and if you value manufacturers building repairable vehicles then not buying anything with this design is a smart idea.
Since almost every vehicle I get has 200k when I first get it, I won't buy junk like these things.

Fair enough, every owner has different criteria. We drive newer vehicles these days, the former Lincoln with the 3.5 was traded at 100k and so will the current Edge. Not really over the water pump, just because we don't keep vehicles longer than that anymore. If I were going to keep it, I'd have the pump done and drive it another 50k. My wife is so flipped over it that it may go that way when it's time.

My son in law had close to 150k on his with the original pump without issue but I don't roll that way.

 

[KCJeep]

So if you wanted a 5 th Gen Explorer, would you forego the V-6 in favour of one of the Ecoboost 4’s? The 2.3 Ecoboost sounds interesting and is in a lot of Fords.

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My understanding is only the FWD bias version of the 3.5 has the internal pump. A RWD bias Explorer should have an external pump, or that just the Ecoboosts? Not sure I'd go for twin turbo though...

 

[Fordiesel69]

Basically it was only a packaging issue on the 2019 and older explorers, flexs, edge, and taurs, among all the lincoln and mazda FWD/AWD variants.

Quite frankly in th mustang, and F150, including the newest 3.3L NA engine in the 2020 explorers, these are very stout and very durable engines becuase the water pump is external. Timing components are 300K easily. Every now and then im sure a phaser will go bad but hey so do toyota and hondas.

 

[meep]

So if you wanted a 5 th Gen Explorer, would you forego the V-6 in favour of one of the Ecoboost 4’s? The 2.3 Ecoboost sounds interesting and is in a lot of Fords.

View attachment 214665View attachment 214666

I had one as a loaner and quite liked it. It did have to rev, and it was responsive to rev quickly, if you needed it to make power. The 10spd transmission seemed well-tuned with this in mind and would shift as needed. At first it was a little annoying until I learned its style and got a feel for it. The 2.3 had no problem moving the big suv around, and the mpg was good for something that big. The 2.3 also had the balance of a Honda - smooth, refined, no shaking, no drama, a well-balanced sewing machine. And, as a bonus, the FWD explorer didn’t feel that nose-heavy to me, which is important to me.

 

[Dave9]

My understanding is only the FWD bias version of the 3.5 has the internal pump. A RWD bias Explorer should have an external pump, or that just the Ecoboosts? Not sure I'd go for twin turbo though...

Yes, though all the 5th gen Explorers are FWD biased.

Ecoboost isn't really a variable. The 5th gen 3.5L in both Ecoboost and naturally aspirated, both have the internal water pump. Neither of the 4 cylinders (2.0 or 2.3L) have an internal water pump.

The 4 cylinders have their own issues, intake valve carbon buildup, and head gasket leaks. Granted I'd rather that failure than trashing an engine from contaminated oil due to a water pump failure, if there wasn't also the never ending debate about whether getting that much power out of a little 2.3L is going to allow for it to last the life of the vehicle, which also depends on whether you live in the rust belt or are unfortunate enough to get in a collision that totals it.

It would be really great if someone came up with an oil moisture detection kit that fits the 3.5L... doesn't necessarily matter if it's detecting coolant from a water pump leak or another cause either, would still be excessively contaminated oil either way.

 

[Snagglefoot]

My understanding is only the FWD bias version of the 3.5 has the internal pump. A RWD bias Explorer should have an external pump, or that just the Ecoboosts? Not sure I'd go for twin turbo though...

All the Gen 5 Explorers with a V-6 have a sideways sitting engine with an internal water pump. The Ford F-150 has a longitudal mounted V-6 with an external water pump. Also, both the naturally aspirated and Ecoboost 3.5 V-6 engines in the Explorer have the internal pump AFAIK.

 

[spj]

I've had issued a 2015 and 2017 Explorer. I also have a personally owned 2015, have a buddy with a 2015 as well. My 15 never had the water pump issue. My 2017 failed at 75,000 miles. Fleet mechanic caught it when he saw coolant during oil change/ inspection. Motor was ok. Have 120,000 on personal explorer, buddy has 200,00 so far so good. I have heard of a guy at a dealership who can change these out without dropping the motor after doing so many.