effect of chinese ownership of volvo

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Someone suggested it was racist or xenophobic to prefer non-Chinese goods.

Yet the Chinese, in many cases, prefer non-Chinese goods. So does that mean the Chinese are racist or xenophobic against the Chinese?

It is possible to prefer goods for reasons other than racism or xenophobia...

Originally Posted By: StevieBoy
I won't buy any autos from a China owned company. Way too many defects in other things they send over here. Some are even hazardous to your health. (e.g.: drywall) I'm boycotting Buick since they have chosen to manufacture their new crossover in China instead of the USA. What Cadillac is made in China?




See the definition mentioned above and the original quote about autos from a China owned company. Isn't that a prejudice without any proof? As mentioned earlier in the thread, not all products from China are shoddy. Evaluate each on it's own merit. See iphone. That's non prejudice. Blanket statements about Chinese auto company... The Chinese are wary of some Chinese products due to the history of those products in the past. What history does a Chinese auto company have in the US? None, yet it's automatically dismissed. Draw your own conclusions. There's a difference and I guess maybe it's too subtle or simple to grasp.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: Starman2112
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
It's funny that lots of people have this attitude, but I bet a lot of them have no problem using their iphone to make phone calls. The quality in China is fine, it's really up to the manufacturer to police their QC. Some can do it, some can't. Has nothing to do with where it comes from. The drywall problem was when there was a shortage and they got some low cost stuff from China.

BMW, Mercedes, Audi all have plants in China making cars.

Do I even dare to say that this attitude is somewhat racist?

It's a form of xenophobia for sure.

What about a USA-Made S60? Are you supporting the local workers and economy of the state the factory is in, or China? A Chinese company owns Volvo, after all.


Posts like these make me wonder why I come here.


Well we have covered political subjects in a clever enough way to keep this going … same with racism starting pretty early on … maybe the thread could now cover religion a bit more …

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Well we have covered political subjects in a clever enough way to keep this going … same with racism starting pretty early on … maybe the thread could now cover religion a bit more …


Is racism political? I don't think either party supports it.

I think I've made some good points. Waiting to hear some other ones.

 

[KrisZ]

So people that don't want to support the race to the bottom, at least in some way, are now called racist. Very classy.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Well we have covered political subjects in a clever enough way to keep this going … same with racism starting pretty early on … maybe the thread could now cover religion a bit more …


Is racism political? I don't think either party supports it.

I think I've made some good points. Waiting to hear some other ones.


You were quick to play the race card over China … something that never crossed my mind … For 30 years I’ve spent half of my life overseas and find most often folks want two things … respect and money … same at home …

But I have far different concerns over US and China relationships … think about how all of a sudden they have a
self appointed long term leader? Not good …

I also find it interesting how often folks go on the attack over US companies doing business with Mexico …
There are advantages of that over China … you know some … in the news daily …

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
So people that don't want to support the race to the bottom, at least in some way, are now called racist. Very classy.


Was that what was actually said or are you making excuses for people? I merely questioned it and pointed out how it could be taken as such. It's still a legitimate point no matter how some people try to spin it.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
So people that don't want to support the race to the bottom, at least in some way, are now called racist. Very classy.


Was that what was actually said or are you making excuses for people? I merely questioned it and pointed out how it could be taken as such. It's still a legitimate point no matter how some people try to spin it.


The "spin" is on you sir. Don't try turning it around as others spinning it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town

It's so simple minded how that is labeled "racist" by some (e.g. Wolf359). So typical. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it, but their form of government does.

Scott


I questioned whether it was racist or not.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

It certainly sounds like some of the above. It sounds like there's some prejudice going on because a Chinese company owns it. Never mind that probably nothing really changed in terms of manufacturing, same plants and people in various countries, many probably not even Chinese.


But why the assumption that the decision is based on race rather than politics? Perhaps some people don't like supporting a communist dictatorship with a not-so-great record regarding human rights and environmental regulation?

No American would want to compete for wages with this guy:

Nor should he or she.

Yes, there are cases where you are pretty much stuck getting something from China, as corporations don't have much of a conscience. But not supporting, as KrisZ put it, "the race to the bottom", doesn't make somebody racist. Consumers seem all too willing to sell their souls for a few dollars savings on the next great trinket and corporations are all too willing to accommodate that. We are our own worst enemy, feigning outrage over things like how women are treated in Saudi Arabia for example, and then still buying their oil. Whining and complaining about the quality of products at *insert big box store* manufactured under 3rd world conditions and then just continuing to buy them. Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich while we pretend to care by liking, sharing and other flaccid social media garbage that makes us feel good about doing nothing.

 

[wallyuwl]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359

I think I've made some good points.


No, you have not. For playing the race card, and so quickly, you are awarded -1000 internet points.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, and now Volvo are the big factories in the US that come to mind.

The only US-Made car produced by a US-owned company that I'd like to own is the Camaro.


Good thing they moved production back to the USA in 2016. Since the 1990’s to 2015, Camaros were assembled in Canada.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, and now Volvo are the big factories in the US that come to mind.

The only US-Made car produced by a US-owned company that I'd like to own is the Camaro.


Good thing they moved production back to the USA in 2016. Since the 1990’s to 2015, Camaros were assembled in Canada.

In the 'shwa! I know a guy who worked on the Camaro line and was pretty proud of it.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich


I don't think it's correct to characterize everything that is imported as exploitation. Much of it is simply free market economics. In most cases, individuals make a choice to make a living by doing a job in demand. In China, tens, if not hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty by leaving their villages and taking on manufacturing and other jobs.

That is not to say there are egregious examples of exploitation eg foreign workers in the Middle East, certain sweatshops in various countries such as Bangladesh, certain manufacturers in China and no doubt elsewhere, garbage being shipped out for processing to third world countries. But even with those issues, social awareness and social networks have helped to bring light to and reduce those problems.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, and now Volvo are the big factories in the US that come to mind.

The only US-Made car produced by a US-owned company that I'd like to own is the Camaro.


Good thing they moved production back to the USA in 2016. Since the 1990’s to 2015, Camaros were assembled in Canada.

In the 'shwa! I know a guy who worked on the Camaro line and was pretty proud of it.


And for sure some of the best Ford’s ever made came from there …
I for one think NAFTA can work far better …and in doing so, not put the money in the wrong pocket …

 

[slo town]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town

It's so simple minded how that is labeled "racist" by some (e.g. Wolf359). So typical. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it, but their form of government does.

Scott


I questioned whether it was racist or not.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

It certainly sounds like some of the above. It sounds like there's some prejudice going on because a Chinese company owns it. Never mind that probably nothing really changed in terms of manufacturing, same plants and people in various countries, many probably not even Chinese.


But why the assumption that the decision is based on race rather than politics? Perhaps some people don't like supporting a communist dictatorship with a not-so-great record regarding human rights and environmental regulation?

No American would want to compete for wages with this guy:

Nor should he or she.

Yes, there are cases where you are pretty much stuck getting something from China, as corporations don't have much of a conscience. But not supporting, as KrisZ put it, "the race to the bottom", doesn't make somebody racist. Consumers seem all too willing to sell their souls for a few dollars savings on the next great trinket and corporations are all too willing to accommodate that. We are our own worst enemy, feigning outrage over things like how women are treated in Saudi Arabia for example, and then still buying their oil. Whining and complaining about the quality of products at *insert big box store* manufactured under 3rd world conditions and then just continuing to buy them. Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich while we pretend to care by liking, sharing and other flaccid social media garbage that makes us feel good about doing nothing.


OVERKILL, thank you for affirming my clearly written response. I said it's about government, not race.

I grew up and worked as an engineer in Silicon Valley for my entire career. I'm retired now. I worked with many Chinese engineers over time and not once in my mind did I somehow consider their race in any of my dealings, professional or personal. They were engineers just like myself, hustling to keep all this high tech stuff running. We were close colleagues and friends. And they were democratic government minded capitalists!

But when I consider China and America as nations, my business goes to the government that supports my social philosophies. That's why I wouldn't buy a Volvo. How can it not be more clear.

Scott

PS I sometimes buy Russian Baltica #9 beer and I feel a bit guilty.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
Originally Posted By: Wolf359

I think I've made some good points.


No, you have not. For playing the race card, and so quickly, you are awarded -1000 internet points.


Thanks. I play them as I see them.

While the defenses giving may be valid, they weren't there in the original post. Which is why I questioned it. Go back, read what was said and see if it's valid or not.

When you think the race card is played, sometimes you have to call them out instead of letting them go. Then people try to pretend that it wasn't played.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yes, there are cases where you are pretty much stuck getting something from China, as corporations don't have much of a conscience. But not supporting, as KrisZ put it, "the race to the bottom", doesn't make somebody racist. Consumers seem all too willing to sell their souls for a few dollars savings on the next great trinket and corporations are all too willing to accommodate that. We are our own worst enemy, feigning outrage over things like how women are treated in Saudi Arabia for example, and then still buying their oil. Whining and complaining about the quality of products at *insert big box store* manufactured under 3rd world conditions and then just continuing to buy them. Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich while we pretend to care by liking, sharing and other flaccid social media garbage that makes us feel good about doing nothing.


I don't follow the race to the bottom concept. That pretty much exists in all of capitalism. So some people don't shop at Walmart or Amazon to avoid it. But again, no previous mention of the race to the bottom or the politics of the country. Just the basic no purchase of any Chinese auto product without a good explanation. So that's why I questioned it. Do you follow that? Does that sound logical? I only went by what was posted, not what wasn't.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town

It's so simple minded how that is labeled "racist" by some (e.g. Wolf359). So typical. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it, but their form of government does.

Scott


I questioned whether it was racist or not.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

It certainly sounds like some of the above. It sounds like there's some prejudice going on because a Chinese company owns it. Never mind that probably nothing really changed in terms of manufacturing, same plants and people in various countries, many probably not even Chinese.


But why the assumption that the decision is based on race rather than politics? Perhaps some people don't like supporting a communist dictatorship with a not-so-great record regarding human rights and environmental regulation?

No American would want to compete for wages with this guy:

Nor should he or she.

Yes, there are cases where you are pretty much stuck getting something from China, as corporations don't have much of a conscience. But not supporting, as KrisZ put it, "the race to the bottom", doesn't make somebody racist. Consumers seem all too willing to sell their souls for a few dollars savings on the next great trinket and corporations are all too willing to accommodate that. We are our own worst enemy, feigning outrage over things like how women are treated in Saudi Arabia for example, and then still buying their oil. Whining and complaining about the quality of products at *insert big box store* manufactured under 3rd world conditions and then just continuing to buy them. Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich while we pretend to care by liking, sharing and other flaccid social media garbage that makes us feel good about doing nothing.


OVERKILL, thank you for affirming my clearly written response. I said it's about government, not race.

I grew up and worked as an engineer in Silicon Valley for my entire career. I'm retired now. I worked with many Chinese engineers over time and not once in my mind did I somehow consider their race in any of my dealings, professional or personal. They were engineers just like myself, hustling to keep all this high tech stuff running. We were close colleagues and friends. And they were democratic government minded capitalists!

But when I consider China and America as nations, my business goes to the government that supports my social philosophies. That's why I wouldn't buy a Volvo. How can it not be more clear.

Scott

PS I sometimes buy Russian Baltica #9 beer and I feel a bit guilty.


Good post … On the PS, might need some Russian collusion to find that beer … heck, might be where I fly to in the morning … Thanks

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I don't think it's correct to characterize everything that is imported as exploitation.


Of course not, which is why I made a point to remark on the 3rd world conditions. Importing, by itself, isn't bad. It's the exploitation that's bad, and of course that's not always in play. For inexpensive consumer goods though, it often is.

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Much of it is simply free market economics. In most cases, individuals make a choice to make a living by doing a job in demand. In China, tens, if not hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty by leaving their villages and taking on manufacturing and other jobs.


That's a rather positive spin on it, but given the pictures I've seen of the folks living in the "dorms" at Foxconn, and of course the fact that they had to put up all that suicide netting, I'm not convinced that moving from the rural rice fields to live and work in those conditions is an overall "upgrade". Sure, it allows them to provide money to their family, which is my understanding as to why many do it, but they will never be well-off working there and the conditions themselves, as well as the personal responsibility for their production there is what drives them to suicide.

We pulled children off their family farms and pushed them down coal mines. While it "lifted them out of poverty" by providing more money than what they had on the farms, that sure as heck wasn't an upgrade either. The difference here is that we are often supporting that same scenario/exploitation full-well knowing it is going on, and willingly turning a blind eye.

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
That is not to say there are egregious examples of exploitation eg foreign workers in the Middle East, certain sweatshops in various countries such as Bangladesh, certain manufacturers in China and no doubt elsewhere, garbage being shipped out for processing to third world countries. But even with those issues, social awareness and social networks have helped to bring light to and reduce those problems.


I don't know about you, but I don't remember the last time I heard somebody say they weren't buying an iPhone because they were unhappy with the working conditions at Foxconn. Sure, I remember the "outrage" on Facebook, but ultimately sales weren't affected. People pretend to care, but when it comes down to getting that latest snazzy trinket, it's surprising how much they'll overlook when that outrage is no longer in vogue. I remember a similar situation with Nike shoes a while back. I'm sure there is an extensive list and yet those brands continue to thrive.

Colour me jaded, but I have a hard time imagining 10 minutes of Western Facebook outrage having an impact on the human rights and employee safety standards in a country that is willing to mow down and run their citizens over with tanks in the not so distant past.

China is modernizing, technically, there is no doubt. Our insatiable consumerism is the driving force behind this, as it is Western money that has facilitated this rise and turned China into the juggernaut that now stands toe-to-toe with the rest of the world. We have given them the technology, willingly, through their mandatory government-tied contracts, and financed its development and implementation domestically through our consumption. We are now building the very thing we so vehemently opposed during the Cold War (a militarized communist regime), and doing it with a big grin on our faces as we shop ourselves silly.

The Middle East is yet another topic where we seem to continue to "get offended" by their barbaric practices and horrific abuse of human rights as well as their treatment of women. But we still deal with them, knowing full-well this is going on.

We seem to have lost the narrative on social conscience with it all just pandering and "progressive talk" that doesn't get in the way of business as usual. I'm not overly optimistic about us finding it again any time soon unfortunately either

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I don't think it's correct to characterize everything that is imported as exploitation.


Of course not, which is why I made a point to remark on the 3rd world conditions. Importing, by itself, isn't bad. It's the exploitation that's bad, and of course that's not always in play. For inexpensive consumer goods though, it often is.

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Much of it is simply free market economics. In most cases, individuals make a choice to make a living by doing a job in demand. In China, tens, if not hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty by leaving their villages and taking on manufacturing and other jobs.


That's a rather positive spin on it, but given the pictures I've seen of the folks living in the "dorms" at Foxconn, and of course the fact that they had to put up all that suicide netting, I'm not convinced that moving from the rural rice fields to live and work in those conditions is an overall "upgrade". Sure, it allows them to provide money to their family, which is my understanding as to why many do it, but they will never be well-off working there and the conditions themselves, as well as the personal responsibility for their production there is what drives them to suicide.

We pulled children off their family farms and pushed them down coal mines. While it "lifted them out of poverty" by providing more money than what they had on the farms, that sure as heck wasn't an upgrade either. The difference here is that we are often supporting that same scenario/exploitation full-well knowing it is going on, and willingly turning a blind eye.

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
That is not to say there are egregious examples of exploitation eg foreign workers in the Middle East, certain sweatshops in various countries such as Bangladesh, certain manufacturers in China and no doubt elsewhere, garbage being shipped out for processing to third world countries. But even with those issues, social awareness and social networks have helped to bring light to and reduce those problems.


I don't know about you, but I don't remember the last time I heard somebody say they weren't buying an iPhone because they were unhappy with the working conditions at Foxconn. Sure, I remember the "outrage" on Facebook, but ultimately sales weren't affected. People pretend to care, but when it comes down to getting that latest snazzy trinket, it's surprising how much they'll overlook when that outrage is no longer in vogue. I remember a similar situation with Nike shoes a while back. I'm sure there is an extensive list and yet those brands continue to thrive.

Colour me jaded, but I have a hard time imagining 10 minutes of Western Facebook outrage having an impact on the human rights and employee safety standards in a country that is willing to mow down and run their citizens over with tanks in the not so distant past.

China is modernizing, technically, there is no doubt. Our insatiable consumerism is the driving force behind this, as it is Western money that has facilitated this rise and turned China into the juggernaut that now stands toe-to-toe with the rest of the world. We have given them the technology, willingly, through their mandatory government-tied contracts, and financed its development and implementation domestically through our consumption. We are now building the very thing we so vehemently opposed during the Cold War (a militarized communist regime), and doing it with a big grin on our faces as we shop ourselves silly.

The Middle East is yet another topic where we seem to continue to "get offended" by their barbaric practices and horrific abuse of human rights as well as their treatment of women. But we still deal with them, knowing full-well this is going on.

We seem to have lost the narrative on social conscience with it all just pandering and "progressive talk" that doesn't get in the way of business as usual. I'm not overly optimistic about us finding it again any time soon unfortunately either

OK… you have eloquently entered into what I had in mind … good folks as average citizens - but leaders and a system of control over these poor citizens that history has already logged as dreadful and it ends in an ugly manner … and the constant stealing of technology is bizarre … I’m sorry … I’d far rather build the trans corridor and do business with friends … those would be Canada and Mexico …
It should not be as complicated as it seems …

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yes, there are cases where you are pretty much stuck getting something from China, as corporations don't have much of a conscience. But not supporting, as KrisZ put it, "the race to the bottom", doesn't make somebody racist. Consumers seem all too willing to sell their souls for a few dollars savings on the next great trinket and corporations are all too willing to accommodate that. We are our own worst enemy, feigning outrage over things like how women are treated in Saudi Arabia for example, and then still buying their oil. Whining and complaining about the quality of products at *insert big box store* manufactured under 3rd world conditions and then just continuing to buy them. Doesn't matter if its a sweat shop in Bangladesh or the iPhone factory in China, we support the exploitation of the impoverished to make our corporations and their shareholders rich while we pretend to care by liking, sharing and other flaccid social media garbage that makes us feel good about doing nothing.


I don't follow the race to the bottom concept. That pretty much exists in all of capitalism. So some people don't shop at Walmart or Amazon to avoid it. But again, no previous mention of the race to the bottom or the politics of the country. Just the basic no purchase of any Chinese auto product without a good explanation. So that's why I questioned it. Do you follow that? Does that sound logical? I only went by what was posted, not what wasn't.


But you didn't feel it was implied just as equally? I mean, there are really only a few reasons why somebody wouldn't want a China-sourced product and I would like to think that most people, when asked, would respond that they don't like the Chinese government rather than they don't like Chinese people

Your inference was that it was the latter when it would appear that, based on the responses here, it was the former.

So no, it doesn't sound logical. I don't think a poster needs to explicitly state that the reason they don't want to purchase Chinese-sourced goods is because they are not a fan of the Communist dictatorship that runs the show and that if they don't, then the immediate implication is that they are a xenophobic white supremacist. There is also the fact that there is a track record of shoddy quality, often tied to these same government-bound entities pushing for product cheapening to bolster profits. Again, that's not a slight against the Chinese people, it's a (legitimate) fear of substandard quality when adequate checks are not in place.

This, as is the case with many topics, is far more nuanced than presented and just assuming racism when contrary opinion is expressed is doing nobody any favours.