Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing Oil

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This is an excellent thread, and though I do not currently own a GDI car of any sort, I am still interested in what is being learned here. Although I am at least as confused as RI_RS4 is regarding unDummy's (sometimes baffling) comments, I am glad it has brought out itemized details regarding this experiment.
I would love to learn details about this custom oil's additive package, though I realize we might not get that luxury. One question I have for Terry is this; if it's possible to generalize (and I realize it may not be) what current oil would an owner of a GDI motor in the United States be best served buying (in order to protect the motor from damage or destruction), even if it doesn't meet the manufacturers spec? I also realize such an oil may not yet exist.
 
Fascinating! This is good stuff.
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This is a great thread!

I hope that the S&T end is not hidden or sanitzed too badly to the extent that the analytical folks on here cannot glean useful insight.

I still maintain that one test is no test, and I do not have real faith in the fact that the engine was "broken in", as no real baseline was produced, IMO.

This oil may be the best thing in the world, but at this time, 90% of it may be a fluke.

I look forward to hearing and seeing more. It is this sort of GREAT work - as much as we pick this apart (many of us are 'academics' and analytical sorts, and this is our nature) that really helps us to learn and glean useful info from this site.

Great work!

JMH
 
JMH, I understand you skepticism. Unfortunately, with limited resources and an engine that is potentially destroying itself on Audi 502.00 approved oils, I couldn't wait another year, and felt I needed to take action. Other oil analysis results are slowly coming in from other engines, which will eventually put this concern of yours to rest.

If we take Fe wear off the table, then we can certainly agree that ring pack/cylinder system is substantially through the break-in region, can't we? If we also agree that a primary cause of fuel dilution is blow-by and fuel wash down, then we can hypothesize that we might be able to design an oil that better retards fuel wash-down and/or blow by, and better withstands the effects of fuel, than the 502.00 oils we are aware of. And, if we were to do this, we should be able to measure the impact on flashpoint.

Flashpoint is particularly interesting, since we have measured flashpoint that have dropped down into the average operating temperature of the oil in this engine. Normal oil temperatures in this engine run from 200F to around 235F under hard driving. Certainly, localized oil temperatures will be even higher. My concern is excessive oil burning, valve and combustion chamber deposit formation, as the oil breaks down.

We have several points of anecdotal evidence that there is a problem. First, several owners (realize there are only 1200 of these cars in the US) have noticed that oil consumption increases significantly after several thousand miles on the oil, in a step-wise fashion. (i.e. no oil consumption and then suddenly 1 Qt is burned.) In one case we were able to convince the owner to test his oil and found that flashpoint had dropped to 230F, with fuel dilution measured > 2%. Second, at least one engine in the US has been diagnosed with valve deposits causing misfires, and other FSI engines (V6,V8 non high-performance) have been seen with the same diagnosis.

Personally, I've seen the following progression in my engine, with normal highway driving while on a long trip:

Mileage Mileage-on-Oil 40C cSt 100C cSt Flashpoint
Motul Etech 0W-40 VOA .. 72.0 .. 11.8 ...... 430
9510 .......... 537 .... 62.8 .. 11.9 ...... 270
10059 ........ 1086 .... 65.9 .. 12.4 ...... 280
10606 ........ 1633 .... 63.8 .. 11.6 ...... 270
11896 ........ 2923 .... 50.2 .,. 9.9 ...... 235

Other oils measured in different RS4 engines seem to show a similar progression, although we do not have as many intermediate points, we do have significantly low flashpoint over time of 275, 265, 250, 235, 230 and 220F. You will be hard pressed to find many UOAs on BITOG that show such low flashpoint on a new engines.

Upon switching to the new test oils I have seen the following progression:

Mileage Mileage-on-Oil 40C cSt 100C cSt Flashpoint
Test Oil 2 VOA ........... xx .. xxxx ...... 395
14779 ........ 1562 .... xxxx .. xxxx ...... 340 (Test oil 1)
15738 ......... 672 .... 79.0 .. 13.6 ...... 360 (Test oil 2 start)
16554 ........ 1488 .... 78.5 .. 13.8 ...... 345
18061 ........ 2995 .... 76.7 .. 13.3 ...... 320


Clearly the test oils are doing something. Couple this with what I suggest is a significant reduction in Fe wear, and we think we are on the correct path.
 
Nick, use this specific oil, it can be procured and sold directly to Dyson Analysis customers from the formulating company. If any of you contact them please tell RLI you are a Dyson Analysis customer. As a matter of fact the more Dyson Customers who order from them the better for future projects. Always use oil analysis to guide YOUR regimen. Otherwise you are guessing.
We are tweaking the formulation obviously but the lube is extremely effective at resisting fuels and deposit formation. Fuel dilute kills any oil but with improved CC seal and lower deposits, while using a chemistry of BIO,SYN,and the cutting edge add pack we are cleanly containing wear, and MAY get close to the factory oil drain intervals without ruining the engines.

Yesterday Ken Hope, Ph.D presented a paper at the STLE conference in Philadelphia that discusses in depth this theory of formulation I am using to correct design issues in this situation.

Nick, the add pack is discussed in the undummy linked articles, More and updated numerous SAE papers, and the University of Pennsylvania studies are available.

One of the strengths of the formula is BIO AND SYN components with appropriate add pack. Trust me JAG, traction coefficient is not a problem,
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Terry
 
Thanks for the info Terry. I would like to know the cost of the oil but understand if that cannot be disclosed here. No worries, I'm not worried about oil's traction coefficients with my VW 1.8T engine or most other people's gas engines.

RI_RS4, that Super Double Secret Oil data above is an amazing improvement over the Motul data. Wow!
 
JAG, derivations of this formula work really well in HDD applications and others. Including VW Diesels and PD engines.

Another point of clarification, I am not the formulator nor a chemist, I am however willing and told that I work well with those who are!
 
Call RLI directly to get cost info. VERY competitive with ANY formula out there.
 
Excellent! Does this oil have any weaknesses relative to other top synthetics in gas engines? Most importantly to me would be service life compared to oil such as Mobil 1 0W-40 in an engine without major fuel dilution. My VW 1.8T engine went through a phase of significant deposit growth when I ventured into some synthetics. I want to avoid that occurence like the plague.
 
RI_RS4 can attest to the cleanliness to the eye and the FTIR soot/solids readings being very low to below detection since using the formula.

There is no comparison to off the shelf syns. This stuff was selected for quality first and price second. Turbo coking, wear, and oxidation are nil. By design.

We are taking the best theories I know of and combining them in this formula. This engine is a literal nightmare for motor oil.

It reminds me more of the racing Diesels from Audi than a gas engine!
 
Thanks again. If I buy some, I will certainly run some tests on it alongside M1 0W-40. I have plans on adding some amount of fuel to the tested oils and then heating them as high as possible without having it ignite. I would heat it for at least several hours and when test is done, check for deposits in the cups. I know that without any fuel in the really good oils, the oils can sustain 320F for over 14 hours without leaving any carbonaceous deposits, so I need to make the test more severe and gasoline could be a good way to do that. Hard deposits on copper (pennies) placed in the oils are another story. You may have seen the pics I've posted of them. Weird stuff! I'd test without any copper in the cups initially.
 
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Yes my wife appreciates all the sympathy shown to her for having me use our property as an "oil test lab". But she supports it enough to have bought me a nice digital scale for precise weight measurements, so perhaps she is slightly to blame as well?
 
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Clearly the test oils are doing something. Couple this with what I suggest is a significant reduction in Fe wear, and we think we are on the correct path.




Interesting... I may just have to start using this new oil in my saab 9-3. If it is that robust for these engines, then it should have no problem meeting the 18k mile OCIs that my car can do. Not as hard on oil, but i want surity that Im using the best in 18k mile OCI oils...

THanks again for doing this good work, and taking the time to clarify your points and thoughts!

JMH
 
This sounds like a very promissing way to get off of foreign oil. Is anyone considering using these? They make a 0w-20. 100% made in the USA lubes and they are biobased.
 
I got a price quote on the 5W-40 oil discussed in this thread. Good price on the oil but shipping is the killer. Still pondering whether to buy. If I had the RS4, I would definitely buy it because I believe it will save the expensive engine.
 
After using $11.75/L Motul 8100 Etech, RLI is cheap by comparison. With a 10L engine oil capacity, my oil changes are quite expensive. RLI gives this happy camper a 25% less expensive oil with 2X or more OCI duration.

Given how so many on BITOG like to experiment with oil, this stuff seems like a natural to me. Be the first on your block .... Personally, I'd much rather help support a small independent company with a superior product than international big oil.
 
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Personally, I'd much rather help support a small independent company with a superior product than international big oil




Agree 100%.
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Unlike Amsoil, these oils truly are American.
 
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