Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing Oil

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1) Fuel dilution has many causes. You cannot say categorically that it is due to sloppy programming or rich mixture. With DI engines, fuel dilution is primarily due to the fundamental design of the combustion chamber's fuel distribution pattern, and the ring pack design. There is ample research and engine design data regarding this, and fuel dilution in GDI engines is a topic of serious research in the automotive industry. In our case, these are racing rings, thin and light, capable of an 8250 rpm red line, and the combustion chamber uses a tumble/swirl distribution. The engine was designed to also run in the lean-burn stratified mode, which is perfect for allowing any fuel dilute to cook off, and given us a 25 mpg 420 HP V8 engine. Unfortunately, stratified mode is disabled in the US market, because of the high sulfur content of our fuel, and our mileage is reduced to 21 mpg.

It is true that mixture richness plays a part. However, most mixture richness these days is required of engines, because of emissions standards. Manufacturers do not have much of a choice here. If you look at how the ECU fuel maps are derived for MED 9 ECUs, you'll find that the programming is far from sloppy. Some highly advanced testing and numerical optimization algorithms are used in the design of the ECU operating space. In addition, this engine is under full closed-loop lambda control at all times. I have looked at air/fuel ratios under all normal operating conditions, and they are quite reasonable.

2) Define "broken-in". I'd consider an engine with over 10K miles on it sufficiently broken in for the purposes of testing. Another way to define broken-in would be to track cylinder wall wear, until it reaches an asymptotic value. In our case, Aluminum and Silicon would be our indicators. However, Silicon is the more accurate indicator in this engine, since the rings ride on glass walls. Clearly, by 8K miles we have reached the asymptote.

As I mentioned earlier, I have plenty of other intermediate oil data, on my engine, and on other engines, that substantiate the dramatic decreases seen with the mystery oil.

Plenty of back-to-back runs were performed with Motul. Other owners have back-to-back runs with Amsoil Euro and Castrol Syntec, both 5W-40, that are consistent with what I have seen with my engine.

3) Yes, that would be Renewable Lubes French Fry oil, as I lovingly call it. However, it is a custom formulation with additives that only Terry and the formulator know about. I'm just a simple test mule.
 
Thanks again for sharing this report and good information. This mystery oil seems to be doing a much better job than the standard 5w-40 grades used previously.
 
Meant to ask, have you ever tried Redline 5w-40? Most shear stable 5w-40 on the market.
 
Buster, no I've not tried redline. In the beginning the goal was to find a 502 oil that would work in this application, and maintain compliance with the warranty. Once Terry determined that all 502 oils that RS4 owners had tried would not perform well, he then choose several test oils based on his deep understanding of the underlying issues involved, and the physical structure and chemistry of the oils. This involved a bit of research.

I will say that the oils that were chosen (one of which was specially formulated) were done so for specific reasons, which I am unable to tell you for proprietary reasons. Terry had full latitude to do anything, so he could have chosen for me to test RL, but he did not. Prior to the Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing oil he did have me test a very unique oil for this application, and confirmed some of his theories about this engine.

I'm sure that Terry will chime in at some point and tell as much as he is willing/able to.
 
Note that I have nothing against using vegetable oils. I'm glad to see at least one company is still actively researching vegetable oil engine usages. I know that non-engine usage and additive packages have been developed by most major oil and additive companies. I don't see why the big players aren't pushing these products. I really can't see why they aren't public with vegetable oil as a acceptable lubricants.

Yep, 10k is broken in, but engines loosen up over their entire life. Any data before breakin in is IMO worthless for comparison. That was the point I was making.
So, I don't see the renewablelube as the best oil. I see it coming in after the majority of break-in/rinsing were complete. At what mileage did the downward curve start?
By looking at the curves: Fe made components are still breaking in. It does look like Fe will level off soon. Chromium/Tin components were fully broken in at 5k. Looks like the Lead component took 12k to fully wear in. Si/Al seemed to be all set by 7k. Curves are an interesting way to look at data, especially if multiple samples are taken.

Also, I don't believe that most modern engines are broken in before 1k. Sorry, but it is engine specific. This engine isn't modern. Read the description. It is a futuristic engine. Any Alusil domestic blocks?

Its very possible to have peak compression and not have a fully worn in engine. We see that regular with some engines still dumping copper/lead for many miles.

Speaking of copper? no copper, boron, moly, insolubles, or other oil properties? viscosity comparison over OCI?

I do believe that the programming is sloppy. Thats my opinion. You do prove it by saying the overseas ECU makes more power, has better MPG, and possibly less fuel dilution. Anytime we cater for the sole purpose of NOx reduction and catalyst longevitiy, the programming is MPG/HP sloppy. Sure, its absolutely perfect and accurate for the environmentalist. Swap in a euro ECU if that is possible.

From what I understand, Terry is a consultant/analyst and not a chemist/blender. I'm glad to see that renewablelube hired one to gather data and provide clout to positive results. Terry has passively mentioned renewablelube in a couple other threads. Companies trying to push veggie products encounter many members of the anti-everything crowd. They need independents with positive data!
I also don't see the additive package as anything special. They are just catering the additives to the HOBs basestock. Throwing in standard motor oil additive packages might've been the 1st mistake made by veggie oil blenders.

BTW, I don't see renewablelube on the list of 502.00 approved oils. Where is the 'must use VW approved oil' crowd? Your data might also make it seem that 502 oils might be inferior to a Mazola, Wesson, and Crisco blend!
 
1) The curve was not downward. That is an artifact of the way Excel is plotting here. There was a step discontinuity in the iron wear data, the fuel dilution percentage and the flashpoint upon introduction of the test oil at 13K miles.

2) Lead has measured at 0-1 ppm in this engine since 3000 miles. Both Motul, and RLI VOA samples show 1 ppm of residual lead.

3) Tin has measured at 0 ppm in this engine since 3000 miles.

4) Nickel has measured at 1 ppm forever, but Motul has 1 ppm of residual Nickel in it's VOA.

5) Fe measurements droped off the edge of a cliff and reduced by a factor of 2X upon introduction of the test oil at 13K miles. Prior to that, incremental Fe measurements were consistent.

6) I never said that engine was broken in before 1K miles.

7) True, peak compression is function of the ring/cylinder system seal. Other components may still be setting in.

8) The other data on copper, boron, moly ... etc is not being shown for proprietary reasons. Terry may wish to reveal more later.

9) I never said that the overseas ECU makes more power. It has better mileage and (possibly) less fuel dilution, because it is able to run in the stratified lean burn mode. That had to be disabled in US models, not because of sloppy programming, but because our fuel has too high a sulfur content, which would cause excessive deposit buildup in the catalytic converters. No engine in the US has successfully been able to run in DI lean burn mode to my knowledge. If you provide a supply of low sulfur fuel for my needs, I'd be happy to run the European programming.

10) Terry can speak about his experience and knowledge base.

11) Renewable Lubes had nothing to do with this oil, except to blend it according to Terry's specifications.

12) How would you know what the additive pack is? I did not reveal that. You are making some assumptions here that are grossly incorrect. These are not standard additives.

13) Nope, many good oils are not on the 502 list. Again, renewable lubes had nothing to do with this test. We could have easily gone to another formulator.

I'm sure Terry will make additional comments when he is free.
 
Just curious: What engine does the RS4 have and what is it that makes it so hard on oils?
 
RS 4 V8 4.2 FSI Direct Injection Engine Features
* 420 hp @ 7,800 rpm
* 317 lb-ft.* @ 5500 rpm
* Aluminum engine block
* Two stage variable intake manifold
* FSI = Fuel Straight Injection
* Compression ratio of 12.5:1
 
Quote:


RS 4 V8 4.2 FSI Direct Injection Engine Features
* 420 hp @ 7,800 rpm
* 317 lb-ft.* @ 5500 rpm
* Aluminum engine block
* Two stage variable intake manifold
* FSI = Fuel Straight Injection
* Compression ratio of 12.5:1




Okay...but what in that list makes it harder on oil than any number of other high output engines?
 
Probably there are some issues with the intake flow pattern for fuel dispersion in the combustion chamber, also. Could be some fuel wash down on the cylinder walls at low intake velocity. This seems to be a generic problem with direct injection.
 
Quote:


Probably there are some issues with the intake flow pattern for fuel dispersion in the combustion chamber, also. Could be some fuel wash down on the cylinder walls at low intake velocity. This seems to be a generic problem with direct injection.




So basically the chief problem is fuel dilution? Is that common across the board on DI applications?
 
Fuel dilution is a larger problem for DI, since the injectors are in the combustion chamber and can cause cylinder wall fuel wash down. The same issue occurred with diesel engines and have been resolved.
 
The VW 2.0T also has DI and disabled FSI in the U.S. It too has shown fuel dilution and I have yet to see an oil that gives UOAs that are as nice looking as many UOAs for VW 1.8T engines. I suspect that what works for the RS4 engine will work well for the VW 2.0T engine due to key similarities.
 
When I post, I post to all previous comments, not to just one person.
Concerning power, I read that the domesticated version has less power then the euro version regardless of what is on paper. If stratified is that great, one would also expect torque area under the curve to be better regardless if peak power is labelled the same.

I've gathered and researched data on renewablelube along with AMG2000 over the years. I just haven't had a chance to use their motor oil. I doubt that there is anything too secret about it. The VOA/UOA will show which direction they're going in.
Here's an ol' article:
http://www.copper.org/innovations/1999/09/oil.html

I have faith in their non-engine lubes. I've seen vegetable based hydraulic oils, gear oils, greases, and cutting oils work perfectly well. What I fear is the cold weather performance, oxidative stability for the longer OCI crowd, and what happens to the oil when moisture becomes excessive(short trip crowd). From what I understand bio-engineered selective crop seed selection, chemically treating and/or refining the vegetable oil, along with a selective additive package will solve the flow and oxidative issues. Looks like they were moving toward copper based additives. I also recently read an article concerning 'hydro treating' vegetable oils to eliminate some of the issues.

Lubrizol's vegetable additive product line:
http://www.lubrizol.com/EnvironmentallyCompatibleFluids/7600index.asp
 
What you read is not true. We're pulling the same power here on the RS4 engine as they are on the European version. Dyno runs, WOT acceleration logs, and quarter mile trap times confirm this.

I'm not sure what your point is about stratified mode. It is not used at full power, only during cruise when output torque levels are low to midrange and fairly constant. I'm also not sure what you meant about torque area under the curve. This has nothing do do with stratified mode, since max torque is always measured at wide open throttle. Here the engine is running lambda = 0.85, which is quite normal for a naturally aspirated engine. Stratified mode's advantage is during cruising at low to mid torque levels when the throttle butterfly can be fully opened and the engine can run lean. Our UK brothers say that when stratified mode kicks in fuel mileage on the on-board computer instantly jumps from 21 to 25 mpg.

I cannot comment on the chemistry, since I know nothing about this.

At this point, unDummy, I'd be happy to get even a 5K OCI out of an oil in this engine.
 
Yes, what works for the FSI V8 will most likely apply to the 1.8 TFSI, the V6 FSI and the V10 FSI engines. The 1.8 was a 1st generation FSI from Audi. A friend of mine in Germany had the opportunity to speak with some Porsche engine designers who indicated that fuel dilution was a known problem with the 1.8 TFSI engine, and that this was supposed to be reduced in new engine designs, like the V8.

Unfortunately, it does not appear that they have resolved all of their problems.
 
No, neither were dropping. If I understand you correctly, Motul wear from OCI to OCI had essentially stabilized, giving about the same wear over the same sample interval, after about 8K miles. Fuel dilution also did not drop. It remained within the 1.7% to 2.5% range, with diluting creeping up as mileage on the oil increased.
 
Guys I will be happy to address here when I get some breathing room. Public disclosure is not my favorite venue for a host of reasons.

Quickly:

I walk the proverbial tight rope as RI_RS4 knew before hiring me. Audi will be engaged on this as testing progress's.
RLI was used because Molakule was off line.

I needed a fluid that could both compensate for the realities of the actual production engine and available fuels.

The lube chemistry selected is still ongoing R&D and no chem design or source is off the table.

I needed to save the unit from failing and I genuinely believe this engine design if taken care of as the warranty states will begin failing soon in droves.

There is a fuel and oil chemistry component to ensuring survival and the major fuels companies have overlooked the need.

From testing to date Audi oil specs are both proprietary and ineffective to protect this design in this market and potentially world wide.

I have been allowed by the customer to share effective helpful suggestions with our existing oil analysis customers using our services and now with BITOG.

Terry
 
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