Does Amsoil make a product like Delvac?

[medic]

I'll be honest - I don't know why you Amsoil dealers hang out here. It seems every time somebody mentions the name Amsoil, somebody has to jump in and bad mouth their merketing, the fact that the oil thickens (except in my truck's engine

) even though they have no proof of increased wear due to thickening, the lack of API licensing, or anything else they can find to complain about.

When Castrol duped the world with their group III synthetic, we all hated them, but now that they have changed the formula for the 0w-30 (and still hide behind the word propriatary) many love them again.

Amsoil has been straight up from day one and many dislike them and look for reasons to justify that dislike. Why is Amsoil an outcast? Why can't many users of BITOG admit that Amsoil makes great products that perform as well, if not better, than others?

For all of you people that don't like Amsoil for one reason or another, but need a 5w-40 for your vehicle - go to your local (or nearest) VW dealer and pick up some group III Castrol Syntec 5w-40. After all, this is what VW wants you to run. Why would you buy anything else? Don't you think if Delvac 1 was all that great that VW would sell it instead? With the exception of the API licensing, how do you know that Delvac 1 meets all of the specs listed on the back? Syntec obviously meets the VW specs or VW wouldn't sell it - wait the GC 0w-30 meets all of those VW specs too. Hmmm, Castrol must be pulling a fast one because VW would never approve a 0w-30.

Now I'll step off of my soap box. Have a good night.

 

[Shannow]

medic,
I'm not bagging the product, and I would use them should I see them carrying out commensurate tests, with third party auditing.

I don't see the API label as meaning anything in particular, other than a stamp that the oil will do one thing or another, in a particular test.

Not up to the rest of us to prove that Amsoil doesn't meet standard x. Up to Amsoil to demonstrate that it meets and exceeds those standards.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Shannow - you make my point better than I,
and like you, I have never bagged any Amsoil product - I have only related negatively to one oil - Castrol's SLX 0w-30. and based on my experience - I disclosed all of the details on here as requested by Terry and others

Surely by now we all know that there are no magic oils and that the variances between various identically specced oils that have been correctly "certified" by the API or ACEA are at the best "minimal"

I would never risk my engines (that cost in excess of $45000 each) by using a lubricant that is not endorsed by the Manufacturer. The brand is irrelevant - the specifications and Approvals are not!

Medic - I have little respect for performance claims that cannot or will not be confirmed by facts. Try seeking warranty for instance when the Manufacturer asserts that the oil is non spec and not Approved. That is my business as a Consultant - to act on behalf of the underdog at times. It is an uphill battle

Performance claims are vital for all of us to make judgements from. Those that cannot be substantiated are frivilous and time wasting

Most Oil companies only make claims based on facts and data that can be substantiated - most are at the least conservative too

I have never seen any "contentious" claims made by BP-Castrol, Shell, ExxonMobil, Motul, FUCHS and etc. on here

And as I commented earlier, I am not connected to ANY Oil Company except as a Commercial user. I hold Commercial Accounts with ExxonMobil, Castrol and Shell and selectively use products from each! I always test and select the best performer for a specific application. I usually select two Brands - one to "back up" the other in their on-going performance

Regards
Doug
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 manual (Delvac 1)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 manual (Delvac 1)
MY89 Porsche 928 S4 Auto (Delvac 1)

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil did and does use third party independent test labs. Why does everyone think they don't? Why do you, Doug, say the claims are contentious? Any more than the ridiculous claims made by the big oil companies on TV.

Sure they have their own lab. It's pretty good too.

I do get tired of this stuff. It always something....when Amsoil uses a third party lab, you know what the usual argument is then? The lab is biased, because "Amsoil paid them to do the testing". Crazy.....I'm sure Exxon Mobil, Castrol, etc have independent unpaid labs test ALL their oils.

I ask anyone to prove and list what performance/sequence of ANY claimed specification that Amsoil fails.

 

[Pablo]

PS Sorry I get a little irritated on these things.

For example: in a another thread the Schaefer's guy posted some data from their own lab:

a) no one challenged the data as biased.
b) no one questioned the validity.
c) the data included 4-ball wear test data and no one challenged that as irrelevant for engines.

This kinda stuff chaps my toe and tells me a bias exists somewhere and methinks it's NOT Amsoil.

[ January 26, 2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wulimaster:
I would say that the AME 15w40 is clostest to the Delvac 1.

Here is a comparison of what we can find on each website.

AME Delvac 1

visc @ 100C cst 14.3 14.8
visc @ 40 C cst 90.2 102
visc index 164 151
CCS visc 3367@-20C ?????????
pour point -46C -45C
flash point 236C 226C
Noack volatility 6.5% ?????????
HT/HS >4.1 ?????????
TBN >12 12

It looks like the AME 15w40 reads more like a 5w40 than the Delvac 1.

---

The biggest problem with the 15w40 is the viscosity is higher than the delvac 1.

Take a look at the 10w40 AMO the vis @40 is identicle to the Delvac.


Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)14.9

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 90.5

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)174

CCS Viscosity @ -20°C, cP (ASTM D 2602)4240

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97)-48 (-54)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)234 (453)

High Temperature/High Shear @ 150°C and 1.0 X 106 s-1, cP (ASTM D 4683), cP4.3

Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172 @ 40 kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hour, Scar in mm) 0.40

Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (DIN 51581)6.9

Total Base Number>12.0

APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL High Performance Synthetic 10W-40 Motor Oil may be used in gasoline or diesel engines and is recommended for applications requiring the following specifications:

• API SJ, SL, CF, CF-2, CH-4, CI-4
• ACEA A3, B3, E3, E5
• DAIMLER CHRYSLER 228.3, 229.1
• CUMMINS CES 20071, 20072, 20076, 20077
• MACK EO-M, EO-M+
• VOLVO VDS, VDS-2
• ALLISON C-3, C-4
• CATERPILLAR ECF-1, TO-2, TO-3
• MAN 271, 3275
• MTU Type 2
• DETROIT DIESEL Series 2000/4000 Category 2
• JASO MA (Motorcycle)

If I lived north of the mason dixon line and didn't run a by-pass this is what I would run in all my diesels. If I had a by-pass, then Series 3000 5w30 with oil analysis would be my choice for any part of the country.

 

[brian fix]

hey lets face it Amsoil is a really great product sold by mostly qualified reps, and also Mobil syn. lubes are good ,Schaeffers has a track record to be claimed to be the best,, there are varables in engine which each upper tier products seen to excell in with wear, oxidation,tbn etc fits the bill for the manufacture to bring out as a selling point,only lube chemistry checking can tell WHICH oil is best for the situation.......

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
Amsoil did and does use third party independent test labs. Why does everyone think they don't? Why do you, Doug, say the claims are contentious? Any more than the ridiculous claims made by the big oil companies on TV.

Sure they have their own lab. It's pretty good too.

---

Pablo,
do they test to the actual specs of API, ACEA, and the OEM specs in these labs ?

I've not seen the results of these tests so far.

I find it difficult to believe that a lubricant "meets or exceeds" without having been tested under the specified conditions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
I do get tired of this stuff. It always something....when Amsoil uses a third party lab, you know what the usual argument is then? The lab is biased, because "Amsoil paid them to do the testing". Crazy.....

---

Yes, that does go though people's heads, and it's wrong to make such an assumption.

But as we've seen lately with drug companies, there are undesirable outcomes that do not get reported, while the positives prove the point. The Mobil aviation oil issue, and the fuel issue down here show that in the fuels/lubricant issue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
I'm sure Exxon Mobil, Castrol, etc have independent unpaid labs test ALL their oils.

---

If they want to use the API logo, don't they have to pay the owner of the spec to test their oil to that spec ?

and don't the API reserve the right to withdraw approval if a random sample fails the spec ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
I ask anyone to prove and list what performance/sequence of ANY claimed specification that Amsoil fails.

---

Pablo, that's the greatest cop-out.

to claim that they "meet or exceed", then Amsoil has to be able to prove that they "meet or exceed" a certain spec.

I've seen the UOAs, and am impressed. Nissan, who are extremely anally retentive when it come to oil used in their TDs will only go on approvals for warranty.

As previously stated, if you can show me where these oils were tested in complete accordance to the specs stated with independent third party review, I would accept that as equivalent to API or whoever.

Just show us the link to the lab and tests, and let us decide.

 

[Pablo]

It's not a "cop out" - when people repeat over and over "Amsoil can't meet this or that...." then the burden of proof has shifted.

10W-30 Tests

API tests

I don't have a link that shows their lab unfortunately. The Sequence IIIF test was at an independent lab.

 

[medic]

Okay, seeing as how the validity of the specs listed by Amsoil is in question because no one has seen actual lab reports or they don't trust the labs, how about all of the oils out there.

How do you know that Mobil 1, or Delvac 1, or Schaeffer's, or Castrol meet the specs claimed.

Here's is one of Schaeffer's products with a list of specs a mile long. Did they send it to each one of the manufacturers in question to get it approved? Why hasn't anyone questioned the validity of these specs? Don't worry about thinking, I'll answer the question for you. These specs aren't questioned because there isn't a label on the front of the bottle that says "AMSOIL".

code:

---

Schaeffer Mfg.’s #315 Simplex Supreme can be recommended in the following applications &/or

specifications for current & non-current equipment.

AGCO-Allis Power Fluid 821XL (current) Minneapolis Moline Part No. 10P708-A

Allis Chalmers Powerfluid 821 Minneapolis Moline Part No. 10P3740-41

Allis Chalmers Part No. 926371 New Holland FNHA-2-C-200 (current)

Allis Chalmers Part No. 924282 New Holland FNHA-2-C-201 (current)

Allis Chalmers Part No. 926372 New Holland ESN M2C41A

Allis Chalmers Part No. 9246634 New Holland ESN M2C41B

Allis Chalmers Part No. 257541 New Holland ESN M2C43

Automatic Transmission Fluid Type A New Holland ESN M2C48A

Belarus New Holland ESN M2C48B

Claas New Holland ESN M2C53A

John Deere J20A & J20B New Holland ESN M2C53B

John Deere J20C & J20D (current) New Holland ESN M2C86B

John Deere J14B & J14C New Holland ESN M2C86C

John Deere JDT 303 New Holland ESN M2C134A

John Deere J21A New Holland ESN M2C134B

John Deere Quatrol® New Holland ESN M2C134C

Deutz-Allis Powerfluid 821XL (current) New Holland ESN M2C134D (current)

Deutz-Allis TU New Holland ESN M2C92-A

Case-IH MS1207 (current) Oliver Type 55

Case-IH MS-1204 (FTD) Plessy-Sunstrand Hydraulic Fluid

Case-IH MS-1205 Renk-Doromat 873

Case-IH MS-1206 (Powerfluid) Renk-Doromat 874A

Case-IH MS-1210 (TCH) Renk-Doromat 874B (current)

Case-IH JIC 185 (TFD) Same Deutz-Fahr

Case-IH JIC 143 Steiger Hydraulic Transmission Fluid

Case-IH JIC 144 Sunstrand Hydrostatic Transmission Fluid

Case-IH JIC 145 (TCH) Versatile Gear & Hydraulic Transmission Fluid

Case-IH Hytran Plus (IH B-6) Versatile Hygear 23M

Case-IH SEMS 17001 (Steiger) Versatile Hygear 24M

Dension HF-0 White Universal Hydraulic Transmission Fluid

IMT White Part No 30-310-5695

International Hough(where Hy-Tran is specified) White Part No 30-311-5717

Hesston & Hesston-Fiat AF-87 (current) White Part No 30-310-5366

JCB White Part No 30-310-5709

Kioto White Specification Q1705

Kubota UDT White Specification Q1722

Kubota Super UDT White Specification Q1766

Landini White Specification Q1766B

Leyland White Specification Q1802

McCormick Farmall (part of case) White Specification Q1826 (current)

Massey Ferguson M-1110 White Specification Type 55

Massey Ferguson M-1127A/B Universal

Massey Ferguson M-1129A (current) Valmet

Massey Ferguson M-1135 (current) Volvo

Massey Ferguson M-1141 (current) Yanmar

Massey Ferguson M-1143 (current)

Mitsubishi

Minneapolis Moline Part No. 10R1336

Minneapolis Moline Part No. 10R1337

Minneapolis Moline Part No. 10P707-A

---

How do I know running this lubricant, because it says I can use it one the bottle, will not void my warranty?

And the next queston, what about Redline. They also claim to meet the specs in question for a 5w-40. Where are their test results?

Oh, I forgot, we are only picking on Amsoil's lack of validity.

 

[Mike_dup1]

While I have not idea which tests they are, Lubrizol does a lot of testing for Amsoil.

Amsoil works with these companies in formulating and testing thier oils, Lubrizol, Ethyl, Battenfeld and so on. So if you think the tesing is done by some fly-by-night compaines, you are way off base.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Do you mean this: impexfap.com/partlist.cfm?listtype=specials&getpart=252776#part252776

$5.65 is pretty cheap for AMSoil 5w-40



[ January 27, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shannow:
]Pablo, that's the greatest cop-out.

to claim that they "meet or exceed", then Amsoil has to be able to prove that they "meet or exceed" a certain spec.

As previously stated, if you can show me where these oils were tested in complete accordance to the specs stated with independent third party review, I would accept that as equivalent to API or whoever.

Just show us the link to the lab and tests, and let us decide.

---

Shannow, Amsoil doesn't give out the lab or labs names so that millions of doubting thomas's like yourself don't go calling them to verify amsoil's claims. In no way is this productive for the labs. The same with the labs not giving out info on their clients. It is not their job.

If you want to know if Amsoil can back up their claims with independent lab work then call the FTC as they would have investigated and have the results of their investigation. They are there to answer your questions about fraudulent claims. Amsoil only needs to answer to the FTC and since it is not there to protect Amsoil like the FDA is there to protect the Drug companies I am sure you will not consider their findings biased.

Amsoil has been around for over 30 years. Go find one instance where the FTC has found them in error or caught them publishing unproven claims. You can find many cases on a lot of snake oils but I would like to see you find one regarding Amsoil. I would think that would be sufficient evidence for you.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
sorry to offer my $.02 again but this quite valid question in post No4 remains unanswered;

a)official Approval for all those Maunfacturer's you list?

Regards
Doug
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 manual (Delvac 1)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 manual (Delvac 1)
MY89 Porsche 928 S4 Auto (Delvac 1)

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wulimaster:
Shannow, Amsoil doesn't give out the lab or labs names so that millions of doubting thomas's like yourself don't go calling them to verify amsoil's claims.

---

Wulimaster, if I could get amsoil in my region, and at a price comparable to M1 (or less, as M1 is pretty close to extortion), then I would.

I've seen enough good UOAs that I would use it in my out of warranty vehicles without question. I've used redline as I saw it at a field day, bought it and tried it in spite of API.

In my vehicles with warranty...nope.

Caltex tech assistants advised me to use delo 400 in my Nissan, in spite of "no better than CF-4" in the manual, and tha fact that they DO use it in all of their ZD30 engines. They would not offer to warrant my engine ($10k rebuild) if I used their choice.

When my warranty is over, then I'm back with Delvac 1, or whatever oil BITOG has convinced me is the best.

 

[Pablo]

Doug check the MB list, and a few others. Amsoil really doesn't believe in the fees for manufacturer's butt kissing. Especially when the testing is the same between manufacturers.......think about it. It's a fee game.

 

[moribundman]

Are we having faith issues?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
moribundman - yes! - and who pays the rejected "under warranty" bills!

Regards
Doug
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 manual (Delvac 1)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 manual (Delvac 1)
MY89 Porsche 928 S4 Auto (Delvac 1)

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
like Shannow the warranty requirements are sacrosanct! Well, I have been in this business for nearly 50 years and in my experience that is what rules in the event of a claim!

As for Delvac 1 5w-40 - it is on a decal on the engine of every Detroit Diesel engine I have purchased since 1996. It reads "Detroit Diesel recommend Delvac 1 5w-40. The factory fill is Delvac MX 15w-40" Of course the engine are made in NA

About 2001 MB withdrew approval for the Delvac 1 5w-40 varaint sold in OZ. ExxonMobil withheld sales while they rebranded all their containers - serious stuff? You had better beieve it

Seeking and maintaining presence on a Manufacturer's Approval list is serious stuff. It usually requires additional test protocols as Amsoil well know as some of their oils appear on some Manufacturer's lists. For instance it has been with MB and Porsche for decades!

My original question remains unanswered!

Regards
Doug
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 manual (Delvac 1)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 manual (Delvac 1)
MY89 Porsche 928 S4 Auto (Delvac 1)

[ January 28, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:

As for Delvac 1 5w-40 - it is on a decal on the engine of every Detroit Diesel engine I have purchased since 1996. It reads "Detroit Diesel recommend Delvac 1 5w-40.

About 2001 MB withdrew approval for the Delvac 1 5w-40 varaint sold in OZ. ExxonMobil withheld sales while they rebranded all their containers - serious stuff? You had better beieve it

Seeking and maintaining presence on a Manufacturer's Approval list is serious stuff. It usually requires additional test protocols as Amsoil well know as some of their oils appear on some Manufacturer's lists. For instance it has been with MB and Porsche for decades!

---

Interesting Doug. It appears that Detroit treats export engines differently than domestic. I was wondering if they supported synthetic in countries other than the US. Here in the US the trend is to push new vehicles out to the big trucking firms every 3 years or 450k to 500k miles. I have never seen CAT, Detroit, or Cummins recommend synthetic and have seen quite the opposite where they either do not mention it at all or downplay any economic advantage it may have over petroleum. Ditto for any additive product that might increase the expected lifespan of their engines. Are they looking out for the consumer in these cases. NO. They are looking at their future sales and do not want anything to change the revenue stream for the negative. Most purchasers are in fear of the warrenty with the largest purchasers being the exception. Those that purchase trucks by the thousands per year are never denied warrenty on the few engines that may fail (all due to human error) so as not to **** off these big customers and have them shop around for other powerplants. BTW. I recently read a Cummins warrenty and it didn't have anything in it about denying a warrenty for using non approved products, perhaps non domestic warrenties are written differently.

As to the MB incident, without knowing the facts I can't even begin to speculate.

Which manufacturers actually test oils which they give their approval for? I suspect none. I believe many only require the oil makers to keep records of testing results as proof that they meet the manufacturers specifications and approval is automatically given on the honor system. Please tell me how Detroit Diesel goes about approving oils for use in their fleet diesels as I have no idea.