Dealer installed swirl marks

[Cardiobuck]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Meh. "Ceramic" coating is an aftermarket application (goes to show you what sort of BS people peddle with regards to "Cermaic" whatever). While annoying I would just move on. That hill ain't worth dying on.

I'm not sure what your comment adds. Yes, "ceramic" coatings are aftermarket - he said as much.

Yes, they work and yes, they have value. Yes, they can be scratched and need corrected just as paint would. His may need reapplied.

So you would do what he already did? Move on and come out of pockey to have your paint corrected and your coating reapplied?

Or you would move on and deal with the ruined finish - which could have easily cost $1000 or more?


Why do you think the paint is swriled and not the coating



Technically the paint is not swirled, only the top coat of ceramic is. For the sake of brevity I don't go around saying the dealer damaged a few microns of my ceramic. The look is much the same. That is the point of the ceramic. It takes the UV damage, oxidation, micro abrasions from whatnot so that the paint does not have to. My installer was pretty confident it would not have gone through the most superficial of the coats. Paint correction is all about how much material you have to work with. Without the ceramic you have to be more vigilant to not cut too deep into the paint. The ceramic can act as a sacrificial layer, if you will.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Meh. "Ceramic" coating is an aftermarket application (goes to show you what sort of BS people peddle with regards to "Cermaic" whatever). While annoying I would just move on. That hill ain't worth dying on.

I'm not sure what your comment adds. Yes, "ceramic" coatings are aftermarket - he said as much.

Yes, they work and yes, they have value. Yes, they can be scratched and need corrected just as paint would. His may need reapplied.

So you would do what he already did? Move on and come out of pockey to have your paint corrected and your coating reapplied?

Or you would move on and deal with the ruined finish - which could have easily cost $1000 or more?

Why do you think the paint is swriled and not the coating

His coating is swirled. It needs correction the same way his paint would if it wasn't coated.

Perhaps I should have used "finish" instead of paint. I thought it was clear what I meant. The procedure his car needs is called a "paint correction," even if it is the coating that needs polished.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Meh. "Ceramic" coating is an aftermarket application (goes to show you what sort of BS people peddle with regards to "Cermaic" whatever). While annoying I would just move on. That hill ain't worth dying on.

I'm not sure what your comment adds. Yes, "ceramic" coatings are aftermarket - he said as much.

Yes, they work and yes, they have value. Yes, they can be scratched and need corrected just as paint would. His may need reapplied.

So you would do what he already did? Move on and come out of pockey to have your paint corrected and your coating reapplied?

Or you would move on and deal with the ruined finish - which could have easily cost $1000 or more?

Why do you think the paint is swriled and not the coating

His coating is swirled. It needs correction the same way his paint would if it wasn't coated.

Perhaps I should have used "finish" instead of paint. I thought it was clear what I meant. The procedure his car needs is called a "paint correction," even if it is the coating that needs polished.



Exactly. It's not the paint that's allegedly damaged but an aftermarket coating. Who's cares whether it's 'ceramic" or acrylic or carnuba. Ceramic coating should be able to take a run through a car wash, otherwise what's the point of spending $$ on it verses say an acrylic.

 

[PimTac]

Those automatic wash brushes will have tiny bits of sand and stone among other things. Nothing will hold up to that.

Just imagine that you bring your perfectly detail car to the car wash. Just moments earlier some guy had run his pickup which was caked in dirt and mud through it.

You can guess what the results will be.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Those automatic wash brushes will have tiny bits of sand and stone among other things. Nothing will hold up to that.

Just imagine that you bring your perfectly detail car to the car wash. Just moments earlier some guy had run his pickup which was caked in dirt and mud through it.

You can guess what the results will be.


Depends. Here in Utah they won't allow muddy trucks thru the (automated) car washes. They have to go to the "wand-do-it yourself washes. And THEY NEVER hose the bay out before they leave.

 

[parshisa]

I think your guys is full of this. If there's a damage in coating - it cannot be repaired, it has to be polished/compounded off and re-coated. And it is not a couple of hours on hard german paint. Hope you did get what you paid for ridiculous 2000$.

 

[Cardiobuck]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Meh. "Ceramic" coating is an aftermarket application (goes to show you what sort of BS people peddle with regards to "Cermaic" whatever). While annoying I would just move on. That hill ain't worth dying on.

It boggles the mind as to why you would waste any of your time on a 'detail and wax' sub-forum. You obviously have no experience in the arena. You also have no interest in learning. Did you look at the picture I posted, use the zoom feature. Don't be upset that you didn't get that with your $30 spray on acrylic. Later you state the coating should be able to take a car wash otherwise why spend the $$ over say an acrylic. I think you could have a nice look with the acrylic also but you should plan to reapply at least every 6 months.
IMO longevity is the main benefit of ceramic over acrylic...but you have to care for it properly and that means no scrub brushes.
An acrylic would also be damaged by the scrub-o-matic wash. ALL products are damaged by these washes. The manufactures of the ceramics make no secret about how they will be damaged if washed improperly. This is why we don't bother trying to educate the dealer on what is on the car we simply ask that they not wash it.

 

[Cardiobuck]

Originally Posted by parshisa
I think your guys is full of this. If there's a damage in coating - it cannot be repaired, it has to be polished/compounded off and re-coated. And it is not a couple of hours on hard german paint. Hope you did get what you paid for ridiculous 2000$.


Well you at least have some knowledge in the field since you correctly refer to it as "hard german paint". $2000 is/was a fair price. The product itself is expensive and then I paid for his time. I have family in Tx...due to demographics we pay more for labor here...I'll stay PC and just leave it at that.

My guy will make it right, if more $$ is needed that is what he will have. I'm giving him the whole day with the understanding that he can have more time if he deems it necessary.

I could have spent twice the price at a competitor who's 6 car shop/garage was filled with nothing but Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini. He had all of the cars lifted, the wheels taken off-- and on some they were even disassembling headlights and door handles so they could clear bra behind the transition. This is a place that hosts classes to teach other would be detailers how its done.

All about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.(don't tell any of this to BMWTurboDzl

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Exactly. It's not the paint that's allegedly damaged but an aftermarket coating. Who's cares whether it's 'ceramic" or acrylic or carnuba. Ceramic coating should be able to take a run through a car wash, otherwise what's the point of spending $$ on it verses say an acrylic.

It's still his finish that he paid for, and it is damaged.

"Ceramic" can take more abuse than acrylic, polymer, or carnauba - but that doesn't mean you can abuse them, or that they can't be damaged.

If anything, the ceramic coating did its job and proved its worth - it was damaged, and not his paint.

A run through the brushes of death would have scratched 3 coats of Klasse and probably the paint underneath.

 

[gregk24]

How frustrating! My second to last trip to the Honda dealer I made it point not to wash it. I got a couple off looks, and when I left there were Post it notes saying "no wash" inside the cabin. But hey, at least they listened. This past trip though I forgot to mention it, and site enough when they were giving me the run down as I paid for my services the service advisor (in a happy customer service voice) told me they washed the car. I cringed in inside. That was the first auto car wash my car has ever had under my ownership. Of course when I bought it I gave it a full paint correction.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Cardiobuck
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Meh. "Ceramic" coating is an aftermarket application (goes to show you what sort of BS people peddle with regards to "Cermaic" whatever). While annoying I would just move on. That hill ain't worth dying on.

It boggles the mind as to why you would waste any of your time on a 'detail and wax' sub-forum. You obviously have no experience in the arena. You also have no interest in learning. Did you look at the picture I posted, use the zoom feature. Don't be upset that you didn't get that with your $30 spray on acrylic. Later you state the coating should be able to take a car wash otherwise why spend the $$ over say an acrylic. I think you could have a nice look with the acrylic also but you should plan to reapply at least every 6 months.
IMO longevity is the main benefit of ceramic over acrylic...but you have to care for it properly and that means no scrub brushes.
An acrylic would also be damaged by the scrub-o-matic wash. ALL products are damaged by these washes. The manufactures of the ceramics make no secret about how they will be damaged if washed improperly. This is why we don't bother trying to educate the dealer on what is on the car we simply ask that they not wash it.


I've been a user of KLASSE AIO/SG along with various products from Optimum for almost 20 years.

Who gives a #$@# about whether a "ceramic" lasts longer than an acrylic when it can't even take a run through a car wash. Does not bode well for its alleged durability. Especially on a daily driver which will upon delivery is almost immediately subjected to road rash. Talk about first world problems..

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Cardiobuck


I could have spent twice the price at a competitor who's 6 car shop/garage was filled with nothing but Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini. He had all of the cars lifted, the wheels taken off-- and on some they were even disassembling headlights and door handles so they could clear bra behind the transition. This is a place that hosts classes to teach other would be detailers how its done.

All about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.(don't tell any of this to BMWTurboDzl

Todd at Esoteric Detail?

 

[Cardiobuck]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by Cardiobuck


I could have spent twice the price at a competitor who's 6 car shop/garage was filled with nothing but Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini. He had all of the cars lifted, the wheels taken off-- and on some they were even disassembling headlights and door handles so they could clear bra behind the transition. This is a place that hosts classes to teach other would be detailers how its done.

All about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.(don't tell any of this to BMWTurboDzl

Todd at Esoteric Detail?


Exactly!
I live 15 minutes from his shop. Thought seriously about using him but decided it was a bit much to spend for a daily driver. I do regret not having the front end done with a clear bra. --might still revisit that.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Cardiobuck
Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by Cardiobuck


I could have spent twice the price at a competitor who's 6 car shop/garage was filled with nothing but Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini. He had all of the cars lifted, the wheels taken off-- and on some they were even disassembling headlights and door handles so they could clear bra behind the transition. This is a place that hosts classes to teach other would be detailers how its done.

All about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.(don't tell any of this to BMWTurboDzl

Todd at Esoteric Detail?


Exactly!
I live 15 minutes from his shop. Thought seriously about using him but decided it was a bit much to spend for a daily driver. I do regret not having the front end done with a clear bra. --might still revisit that.

Todd runs a great operation. His background is a lot different than most detailers though - he has a Fortune 500 sales background. He is a marketing genius....

 

[parshisa]

Yes, i had some detailing background (not on professional level for a living but have done a fair share of cars, including both of mine cars corected and ceramic coated). Most time consuming part of any detail is paint correction. Coating itself costs really nothing and it doesn't take all that much time to install. With that said, no matter how many layers have been installed, once it is compromised (auto carwash) - it needs to be removed (compound/polish) and re-applied. You can leave it as is, and it will still show it's hydrauphobic properties, but it will be swirled. Sorry, but coatings are no magic.

Also, don't be fooled by the amount of fancy cars in the shop. There was thread on Autogeek about the guy who got his cat detailed in one of the shops full of cool expensive cars, but it was a complete junk job, and he came back to the shop 3 times before he finally requested refund. And he did get it because the shop name is was exposed to public knolwdge and trashed on forum. Just post on AG forum and ask for detailers innyour area. There are bunch of good detailera on thw forum that do care about their reputation and do amazing job.cheers

 

[PimTac]

I love Todd's videos on YouTube. A lot of informative stuff there.

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted by Cardiobuck
They would make good on paying for my guy---you are joking! They don't even pay their own people decent wages(it's all piece-rate), they sure as [censored] ain't paying my guy.
EVERY car on their lot has these swirl marks---they occur when you use any machine wash where the bristles make contact with the paint. They are not going to reimburse me for doing what they do to every other car in their possession. And to everyone else, they did note on the invoice not to wash it! They put a laminated placard on the dash that said "do not wash"! And still some of you are acting like it's my fault. Wow.


No, we are acting like you're complaining for nothing if you're not going to hold the dealership accountable for failing to follow instructions and messing up your expensive coating. If they noted on the invoice not to wash, and they put a placard on the dash that said not to wash, and then they still ended up washing it and putting swirls all over it, then they are at fault and are responsible for taking care of it. We're not acting like it's your fault - we are acting like you need to stand up for yourself and get made right, instead of just ranting on here.

Originally Posted by Cardiobuck
The service manager left a voicemail the next morning after he saw my google review. There is nothing for he and I to talk about. I have written them off. In the event I have to go back in for something I will use someone else and make it a point to be up their *ss. I have an appointment with my guy next Friday. He will get it back to the condition I want (he has removed the dealer installed marks for many clients). It was almost time for the annual inspection anyway. Now he just has another 1-2 hrs of work to put in.


First - I agree about finding a different dealership for future service. Second, if the service manager is actually reaching out to you, this is a step in the right direction, and shows that they are at least potentially willing to make things right. Considering how much you have been complaining, it boggles my mind why you would simply choose to ignore him, write this off completely, and not even call him back to see what he might be willing to do to fix the issue.. Are you that afraid of confrontation???? Holy heck man! What is the harm in calling him back and discussing the matter with him? Stand up for yourself!

 

[KGMtech]

I now admit that I had - mistakenly - assumed that a Ceramic coating was hard....like my kitchen cupboards full of Ceramics dishes usually are. So now I read that the benefit of Ceramics is that they are hydrophobic? but are not going to make my paint harder to scratch?

Not really understanding this new product. It's your money, do with it as you please )

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by KGMtech
I now admit that I had - mistakenly - assumed that a Ceramic coating was hard....like my kitchen cupboards full of Ceramics dishes usually are. So now I read that the benefit of Ceramics is that they are hydrophobic? but are not going to make my paint harder to scratch?

Not really understanding this new product. It's your money, do with it as you please )

Easier maintenance (washing), higher gloss (if maintained).

 

[SirTanon]

When properly applied and allowed time to cure, most true 'Ceramic' coating are actually quite hard, and can resist quite a bit of punishment. This is not to say that all are, but most are.

CarPro Cquartz, for example, is quite hard and durable when applied correctly and provided sufficient cure time.


None of them are completely scratch-proof though, so I always try to wash mine as I would with any other nice automotive finish.