Gotta use a Quality Full Synthetic in that motor and don't follow the OLM , stick to 5k max . The stretching is real in the GM "high Feature " engine
Dad's Enclave 3.6L ruined a timing chain
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This is a port injected engine, so all the GDI talk means nothing for this thread ...
Wet chains with constant oil flow do much better than ones that rely of semi-remote splash lube. Is there somewhere that can be tapped to create a squirter for this chain?
Wet chains with constant oil flow do much better than ones that rely of semi-remote splash lube. Is there somewhere that can be tapped to create a squirter for this chain?
shocking it lasted this long, i see 3-5 3.6L's getting timing chains a week on the tech page. always people running to long of oil changes and run low on oil.
I think this has a lot more to do the the inferior metallurgy of the chains than GDI or even OCIs.
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The newer LFX 3.6 engines have seen a ton of upgrades/updates. Not sure what they did exactly to the timing chains?( could be in this link, I just never read it all) but since 2012, far less of these engines have seen issues that were common in the past.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lfx/
Click on "overview" and "specifications".
http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lfx/
Click on "overview" and "specifications".
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My son has a 2008 Cadillac with the DI 3.6. It had the timing chain replaced in 2010 under warranty at 36,000 miles. Has been fine ever since. He follows the oil life monitor, although it was reprogrammed at some time to shorten the OCI from the factory new OCI. Uses any cheap full synthetic oil but it does consume some. Currently 180,000 miles on the car.
In my opinion the problem with this chain is people not catching oil consumption in time and running low on oil and secondly, some chains/sprockets/guides were just not manufactured properly from the start.
In my opinion the problem with this chain is people not catching oil consumption in time and running low on oil and secondly, some chains/sprockets/guides were just not manufactured properly from the start.
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Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
My son has a 2008 Cadillac with the DI 3.6. It had the timing chain replaced in 2010 under warranty at 36,000 miles. Has been fine ever since. He follows the oil life monitor, although it was reprogrammed at some time to shorten the OCI from the factory new OCI. Uses any cheap full synthetic oil but it does consume some. Currently 180,000 miles on the car.
In my opinion the problem with this chain is people not catching oil consumption in time and running low on oil and secondly, some chains/sprockets/guides were just not manufactured properly from the start.
Everything you said is true and people don't watch the oil in these engines. I see them everyday 1-2 qts low and that just makes the timing chain issue worse. I also have an 08 CTS 3.6DI. My chains were done at 45k miles and I've always ran Mobil 1 at 5k intervals and it didn't make any difference. I have 150k miles now.
My son has a 2008 Cadillac with the DI 3.6. It had the timing chain replaced in 2010 under warranty at 36,000 miles. Has been fine ever since. He follows the oil life monitor, although it was reprogrammed at some time to shorten the OCI from the factory new OCI. Uses any cheap full synthetic oil but it does consume some. Currently 180,000 miles on the car.
In my opinion the problem with this chain is people not catching oil consumption in time and running low on oil and secondly, some chains/sprockets/guides were just not manufactured properly from the start.
Everything you said is true and people don't watch the oil in these engines. I see them everyday 1-2 qts low and that just makes the timing chain issue worse. I also have an 08 CTS 3.6DI. My chains were done at 45k miles and I've always ran Mobil 1 at 5k intervals and it didn't make any difference. I have 150k miles now.
10-year old vehicle with 150k miles?
I wouldn't spend the $$$ on a timing chain replacement, I'd call it life on the vehicle!
With everything that could start going wrong on a vehicle that age and mileage, this will just become a HUGE money pit - put all the $$$ you will need in repairs into a new vehicle.
Getting this fixed is a really dumb move, IMO.
I wouldn't spend the $$$ on a timing chain replacement, I'd call it life on the vehicle!
With everything that could start going wrong on a vehicle that age and mileage, this will just become a HUGE money pit - put all the $$$ you will need in repairs into a new vehicle.
Getting this fixed is a really dumb move, IMO.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
10-year old vehicle with 150k miles?
I wouldn't spend the $$$ on a timing chain replacement, I'd call it life on the vehicle!
With everything that could start going wrong on a vehicle that age and mileage, this will just become a HUGE money pit - put all the $$$ you will need in repairs into a new vehicle.
Getting this fixed is a really dumb move, IMO.
I think it depends on the cost to fix, and how nice the vehicle still is.
But the OP isn't following up anyway....
10-year old vehicle with 150k miles?
I wouldn't spend the $$$ on a timing chain replacement, I'd call it life on the vehicle!
With everything that could start going wrong on a vehicle that age and mileage, this will just become a HUGE money pit - put all the $$$ you will need in repairs into a new vehicle.
Getting this fixed is a really dumb move, IMO.
I think it depends on the cost to fix, and how nice the vehicle still is.
But the OP isn't following up anyway....
I've been studying timing chains for a while now, trying to gauge when I should start thinking about replacing whose in my household vehicles. When I saw GM 3.6L engine front cover off for the first time the impression I had gotten that they had made the chain unnecessarily long. Because of that, net stretching effect is greater. No wonder these GM engines are predisposed to an earlier chain failure. Contrast that with GM small block engines, where timing chain is very short. Those small block engines can run to 500,000 miles and more without an engine overhaul.
From what I've gathered thus far, provided that a vehicle is properly maintained, it's a spirited driving that contributes negatively to timing chain stretching over time. That's because during acceleration stress is highest, not surprisingly so.
Looking at this subject broadly however, I cannot not to think there is some automaker conspiracy going on here. I mean what in the world was wrong with timing belts? Taking a cover off and replacing a belt was a snap, and if you did it every 50,000 miles the engine could run forever. Well, at least the valve train wasn't the weakest link. So, automakers thought how can we make it so that engine is done once it reaches 150,000 miles or so, and no average Joe can fix it in his garage. And they said let's use a timing chain instead of a belt! Joe ain't gonna take front engine cover off in his garage just because he wants to replace timing chain early. The only time he'll want to do that is if there is a problem already. Even then, he'll probably go to a dealer and while he is there we'll just sell him a new vehicle.
But that didn't stop everyone and some people here and there started working on the timing chains on their own. Meanwhile, manufacturers started placing timing chains in the rear of the engine (latest audi v6). There you have it! Want to change timing chain? Try pulling the entire engine out first!
Bottom line, the unfortunate reality is such that timing chains do stretch and replacing a chain isn't an easy job. Proper maintenance and gentle driving will prolong the life, but will not stop the issue.
From what I've gathered thus far, provided that a vehicle is properly maintained, it's a spirited driving that contributes negatively to timing chain stretching over time. That's because during acceleration stress is highest, not surprisingly so.
Looking at this subject broadly however, I cannot not to think there is some automaker conspiracy going on here. I mean what in the world was wrong with timing belts? Taking a cover off and replacing a belt was a snap, and if you did it every 50,000 miles the engine could run forever. Well, at least the valve train wasn't the weakest link. So, automakers thought how can we make it so that engine is done once it reaches 150,000 miles or so, and no average Joe can fix it in his garage. And they said let's use a timing chain instead of a belt! Joe ain't gonna take front engine cover off in his garage just because he wants to replace timing chain early. The only time he'll want to do that is if there is a problem already. Even then, he'll probably go to a dealer and while he is there we'll just sell him a new vehicle.
But that didn't stop everyone and some people here and there started working on the timing chains on their own. Meanwhile, manufacturers started placing timing chains in the rear of the engine (latest audi v6). There you have it! Want to change timing chain? Try pulling the entire engine out first!
Bottom line, the unfortunate reality is such that timing chains do stretch and replacing a chain isn't an easy job. Proper maintenance and gentle driving will prolong the life, but will not stop the issue.
Yup long chains, lots of sprockets, and long slipper blocks combined often with extended OCI's arent a great combination.
Gm has revised the OLM on most of the 3.6 line because of timing chain stretch issues and extended Ocis
Whats wrong with belts? - " Joe" isnt going to do most of then because they arent all easy to change as you describe - and it isn't just the belt - once you are inside the thing - you should do the rollers, and water pump while you are in there and you have a 14-1500 job all in at many dealerships.
A properly designed chain system with good maintenance and filters will last several hundred K easily if not indefinitely.
UD
Gm has revised the OLM on most of the 3.6 line because of timing chain stretch issues and extended Ocis
Whats wrong with belts? - " Joe" isnt going to do most of then because they arent all easy to change as you describe - and it isn't just the belt - once you are inside the thing - you should do the rollers, and water pump while you are in there and you have a 14-1500 job all in at many dealerships.
A properly designed chain system with good maintenance and filters will last several hundred K easily if not indefinitely.
UD
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Here's one I did a few years ago - one more flick of the key and it would've been all over.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
I've been studying timing chains for a while now, trying to gauge when I should start thinking about replacing whose in my household vehicles.
Google:
timing chain oil site:bobistheoilguy.com
and there is a lot to read.
dexos1 Gen2 new tests include a timing chain elongation test, similar to what Mercedes 229.5 has done for many years. Look for those oils.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
When I saw GM 3.6L engine front cover off for the first time the impression I had gotten that they had made the chain unnecessarily long. Because of that, net stretching effect is greater. No wonder these GM engines are predisposed to an earlier chain failure. Contrast that with GM small block engines, where timing chain is very short. Those small block engines can run to 500,000 miles and more without an engine overhaul.
That is one of the reasons you are seeing almost all engine makers going to inline-4-cylinder turbo engines with short, simpler timing chains to replace complicated V6 engines. Less wear, less flopping around.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Looking at this subject broadly however, I cannot not to think there is some automaker conspiracy going on here.
Usually the engineers do design an engine to last through durability testing. Google "How Powertrain Development Teams Ensure Durability By Beating Out of Engines" since I can't post the link due it having a banned word in the URL. Then, projections are made to go 200,000 miles for major parts. Guesses, so some cars go longer or shorter of course.
I've been studying timing chains for a while now, trying to gauge when I should start thinking about replacing whose in my household vehicles.
Google:
timing chain oil site:bobistheoilguy.com
and there is a lot to read.
dexos1 Gen2 new tests include a timing chain elongation test, similar to what Mercedes 229.5 has done for many years. Look for those oils.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
When I saw GM 3.6L engine front cover off for the first time the impression I had gotten that they had made the chain unnecessarily long. Because of that, net stretching effect is greater. No wonder these GM engines are predisposed to an earlier chain failure. Contrast that with GM small block engines, where timing chain is very short. Those small block engines can run to 500,000 miles and more without an engine overhaul.
That is one of the reasons you are seeing almost all engine makers going to inline-4-cylinder turbo engines with short, simpler timing chains to replace complicated V6 engines. Less wear, less flopping around.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Looking at this subject broadly however, I cannot not to think there is some automaker conspiracy going on here.
Usually the engineers do design an engine to last through durability testing. Google "How Powertrain Development Teams Ensure Durability By Beating Out of Engines" since I can't post the link due it having a banned word in the URL. Then, projections are made to go 200,000 miles for major parts. Guesses, so some cars go longer or shorter of course.
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OP said owner was going 6-7K on syn blend or high mileage oil. To me, that's stretching the limits of an oil change interval. I do 5K maximum with syn blend.
Pennzoil had a few things to say about timing chain wear: https://bobistheoilguy.com/valve-train-and-timing-chain-wear/
For timing chains, in addition to the need for correct wear protection additives and friction modifiers, the oil formulators also watch the dispersants in the oil quite closely. The fear is that without a suitable dispersant, soot and carbon in the oil could collect inside the pins of the chain and create wear or limit movement that would result in the chain’s effective length changing. If the chain’s effective length changes even slightly, it can be sensed by the ECM and create problems.
For timing chains, in addition to the need for correct wear protection additives and friction modifiers, the oil formulators also watch the dispersants in the oil quite closely. The fear is that without a suitable dispersant, soot and carbon in the oil could collect inside the pins of the chain and create wear or limit movement that would result in the chain’s effective length changing. If the chain’s effective length changes even slightly, it can be sensed by the ECM and create problems.
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