Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)

[Filter guy]

Slalom44..on your picture that you posted of the clicker valve filter element above, there are two holes showing. Correct? And actually, there are 6 holes in total. Correct? This is in the dome end of the can.

What's inside those holes? I'm suggesting a gasket. That's what i'm talking about.

Some people are trying to push or probe on the bit of endcap where the leaf spring centers. This is irellivent. The hole in the leaf spring is designed to fit on the protrusion from the endcap to center it and form a perfect fit. The protrusion is not there to collapse inward, imho, to make the by-pass work.

How it works is as I described, the oil goes through the 6 holes and forces past the gasket..or clicker. It clicks open or it is shut.

If you look at or cut open a spring type by-pass there is something there in the design to prevent oil from going past. It is either rubber or a composite material in either type, engine end or dome end. Otherwise oil would route past the filter element full time in the by-pass area. Check out pics of other filters with dome end by-pass valves. There is "something" covering that 1/4" hole. Beyond that is the spring which you can see when you look down the center tube. Same thing with an engine end by-pass. Cut open the by-pass sometime..

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

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Originally posted by goodvibes:
I don't get how Champion does this super extensive testing on filters and then radically changes it's bypass design less than 2 yrs into the clicker. They probably thought it was good enough to get by or it just couldn't hold spec on in production. Either way there is obviously a problem with it if it's already on its way out. Their test proceedure clearly wasn't comprehensive enough. I'm not claiming conspiracy. I suspect they started working on a new design VERY shortly after the clickers intro. At least they made a change and came out with a filter that will remain cheap and be a better alternative to Fram. Fram's still Fram and everything else is more expensive. It just needs to not fail.

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I think you're getting two things mixed up. Clicker valves and the new E-core filter.

Clicker valves haven't been discontinued.

And E-core filters can't use a clicker valve with the no metal filter element. So a different design needed to be made with the E-core.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by TurboJim:
Many of the pictures of damaged filter's we've seen came off of OBDII vehicles. I would think that if the filters were this bad that some sort of code would be thrown indicating abnormal oil pressure.

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I've yet to see an OBDII vehicle with an oil pressure sensor tied into the engine computer.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Filter Guy, that clicker valve is metal-to-metal.

 

[lubeowner]

Filter Guy,

Better take another look at the clicker. You are the one confused about its operation. There is no gasket or flap on the other side of the holes. There is nothing inside the filter body at all. There is a reason that they are aborting the clicker, and yes they are still available only because they have to run through their stock and materials. All clicker part #'s are slated to go E-Core over the next few months.

About the OBDII someone was talking about, it has nothing to do with the oil system. Period.

About me using a suction or vacuum drain system, absolutely not, and furthermore I despise shops that use these methods.

The other person who posted the pics of the failed Champion looked exactly like the failures I am seeing. Pleats dislodged, little tears in the media, collapsed pleats, etc.

We do not use any oil additives, we use only manufacturer recommended oil, and mostly work on newer vehicles.

I have never said that every Champion filter is having problems, but I did say that many are. Why post pics of the ones that didn't fail, who cares? I am more interested in the ones that do fail. Friday, I cut open several filters. There were lots that were fine, but there were 4 that were damaged, with the same type of failures shown in my pics. These were off the same types of vehicles with the same oil wt., and same mileages, and same OCI. As I have said 100 times the ones with the uneven pleat spacing are having the problems.

As I have said several times before I will post all pics of any failed filters regardless of brand. But we are simply not finding problems with the Purolators, Wixes, and others. The only failure I have seen other than Fram and Champion is a Hastings, but it was on an abused vehicle with sludge. One thing that I will note though is that the Purolator Premium Plus, PureOne, Wix, and Fleetguard filters have not shown torn media even when run waaaaay overdue. This tells me that they are tough and can withstand abuse. Some of these other filters are having a hard time with manufacturer recommended drain intervals.

BTW, I am having my Champion inventory lifted by Wix this week and changing over to them for all of our spin on filters. That way I won't have to send in filters for inspection, call hotlines or be paranoid about whether the filter "might" last.

As I was boxing up some of the old outdated stock of Champs I looked in to few, wow, threaded end bypasses, stout steel center tubes, and so on. The good ole' days I thought to myself.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by lubeowner:
About the OBDII someone was talking about, it has nothing to do with the oil system. Period.

I stand corrected. After reviewing 20+ pages of VW OBDII codes I only came up with three for oil and they were all about temperature. Nothing about pressure.

Originally posted by lubeowner:
About me using a suction or vacuum drain system, absolutely not, and furthermore I despise shops that use these methods.

Thank you for clearning that up. Another theory of mine nipped in the bud. Darn!

 

[goodvibes]

I'm not confused about the filters but I may be about the market. I was under the impression that clickers were leaving in favor of e-cores. Obviously this won't happen overnight but haven't some clicker models become e-cores?

 

[jthorner]

As far as I can tell from looking at various SuperTech and Bosch Premium filters, all E-cores are of part numbers which previously were supplies as the short lived clicker design.

Only Champion knows what their actual manufacturing plans are.

As to the question of some filters showing internal failures and some not, this is typical of a manufacturing variation issue. The earlier statement by Filter Guy that the paper is cut to *approximately* the specified number of pleats *by hand* means that in actual manufacturing there is variation in the number of pleats in a given filter. Geometrically this also means that there will be big differences in the arrangement of the pleats around the circumference. We have seen many pictures posted here of Champ filers with one area of the pleats bunched tightly together and another area spread apart.

As a retired manufacturing engineer (semiconductor in my case) this sort of variation is highly suspect, and also leads one to wonder what other semi-random assembly variations and hand operation are part of the process. If this were my professional responsibility to analyse that would be the first place I would be looking to see if there are any correlations between observed field "anomalies" and known manufacturing variations. I'm sure there are a bunch of other variables such as how much adhesive is applied to the paper/end-cap interface, aging of the adhesive, temperature in the factory at assembly time, etc. etc. A factory which has operators hand cutting filter paper based on ink sprays sounds very 1970s.

John

 

[Shannow]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
On top of one the owner has little control over and thats excessive pressure by the oil pump regulating valve.

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Not quite sure what the oil pump releif has to do with element failure, but I bet that a bunch of casing failures (visible to consumers) would get a lot of airplay.

 

[Greaser]

Clicker valve is METAL to METAL...if any crude gets in-between the two metal plate during by-pass it leaves the by-pass open...at least a gasket of some sort would seal eventually.I pushed down on the middle dome with a pencil and it "bends" down into bypass mode...took alot of pressure with that pencil...this valve also is part of the spring componant that keeps the whole filter to-gether...Filter-Guy I surprised you didn't know this

 

[Filter guy]

Well i didn't know it, apparently, because I wasn't at Champ when they went to that design. It would make more sense when i see it being produced.

Speaking of which. Champ isn't discontinuing clicker valves because they are waiting to run down inventory. lol. Champ makes all their own endcaps and leaf springs and backplate assemblies. Usually they have about a weeks supply of component parts. Take a tour of their fabrication department when you go on the plant tour. They also make their own by-pass valves for both engine end and dome end.


As for the glue business. They blend their own. And as far as i know, they are the only filter manufacturer that has their own in-house chemical department for that purpose. Which means the glues ( plastisol) used do not get stored very long as the chemicals used can seperate out of suspension. So you would need a 55 gallon drum shaker to stir the mix back up. You can tour that as well.

On the production line the glue is metered out into the endcaps. For the E-core the glue is also metered out under computer control.

And like all QC, the glues are tested to make sure the "mix" is correct depending on application. ( Oil, Fuel, Air, Coolant, or specialty elements like the IRL filters that use methanol fuel).

Champ used to own Pyroil Chemical Company. They sold it to Ashland ( Valvoline) sometime in the 90's if memory serves. But they kept their in-house chemical division. So they got out of the fuel conditioner, oil additive, hand cleaner, starting fluid, etc business.

 

[MADMIKE]

I agree--cut open a SuperTech 3593A with clicker and don't see how it will ever "open"---hard to imagine enough internal pressure concentrated in the right places to force the metal retainer brace to distort and allow oil through the holes--it also seems that once the brace distorts or bends it will stay bent and won't revert to its initial shape--it shouldn't be called a "valve" at all. I have a few left but after they're gone no more clickers--should all be E-cores by then anyway.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:


The 3980 (Chevy 4.3 motor) has changed to the ecore design and it does NOT have the internal bypass.

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The ones I've seen have the two sets of holes and what looks to be the same bypass/ADBV that's used in the 3614/3600.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

T-Keith, that is true, sorry I was unclear bout that...
The ecore version of the 3980 DOES have a internal bypass just because Champion decided to make the adbv a combo adbv/bypass valve...The application does NOT call for a internal bypass and the older Champion/ST 3980 filters did not have a internal bypass/"clicker"...
So basically, they added a internal bypass to a filter that previously did NOT have one is what I should have said

Almost makes the 3980 and the 3600 the same thing now doesn't it?
Thanks for clarifying
Rando

 

[goodvibes]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:

Speaking of which. Champ isn't discontinuing clicker valves because they are waiting to run down inventory. lol.

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I don't think anyone said this is why clickers are still around. It must take some time to design and meticulously

test new filters for every application and champion may not yet have enough production capacity on the e-core to just discontinue clickers even if they would prefer to. It seems that they didn't get it right. At least the fix is in and in pretty short order.

 

[Gary Allan]

I just grabbed the dismantled elements of my ST clicker (st16). The center does indeed flex. The clicker is has not function other than to expose the end cap to the external pressure and cover the holes (that is, I integrated the workings incorrectly). If you grab the dismantled filter module (media and end caps) ..it takes very little effort to flex the end using your thumb. To perceive it, merely pinch (and I mean a passive "pinch") using your thumb and forefinger placing your forefinger on the threaded side end cap ..and your thumb on the center of the closed side end cap. Works very easily.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Glad to see it actually works, at least those folks who are using them are at least semi-protected. I still don't like the theory behind it though...on/off bypass/hydraulics is not a good thing..regardless, glad to see it's not a total flop.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I'm trying to figure how it would be any less reliable than the traditional bypass. But our imperical evidence (aka lubeowner) appears to show that "in filters where this would make a difference" that it would expose the weak link.

The only thing that I see (in my imagination) is that it would be harder to manufacture a end cap with the same consistant flex characteristics (to such a fine degree of variance) than it would be a bonafide spring mechanism.

 

[slalom44]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I just grabbed the dismantled elements of my ST clicker (st16). The center does indeed flex. The clicker is has not function other than to expose the end cap to the external pressure and cover the holes (that is, I integrated the workings incorrectly). If you grab the dismantled filter module (media and end caps) ..it takes very little effort to flex the end using your thumb. To perceive it, merely pinch (and I mean a passive "pinch") using your thumb and forefinger placing your forefinger on the threaded side end cap ..and your thumb on the center of the closed side end cap. Works very easily.

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If I understand you correctly, the failed filters that I (and Lubeowner) had were defective and not typical because they didn't budge when they were "pinched". Interesting....

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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If I understand you correctly, the failed filters that I (and Lubeowner) had were defective and not typical because they didn't budge when they were "pinched". Interesting....

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They may or may not have. I'm merely suggesting that when (di)tressed that the media proved to be the weakest link where the clicker was employed. Perhaps there is NO DIFFERENCE in the media quality in a given filter whether it be clicker or traditional. Perhaps the misperception is that in reality the traditional bypass degraded over time ..sparing the media ..yet the end cap flexing clicker retained it's resilience beyond any resonable filter life expectation. This doesn't look to be the case in your situation ..but if you look at most of lubeowners images ..the media looks very hammered.

That is, perhaps the reason that you don't see media rips in such high frequency in filters that do no employ the clicker ..is that the bypass in them is actually more matched in quality and is, effectively, "shot" ..and that the normal PSID required to open it ..if it remained intact ..would collapse or rupture the media ..or rather ..filters subjected to that service ..that don't have damaged media ..may in fact be totally saturated and may have virtually no oil flowing through them. The end cap should not be effected by the level of heat that a filter would be subjected to ..yet a traditional bypass could easily be.