Chevy volt is 10,000$ over priced.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: rjundi
ANY hybrid is way overpriced if the sticker price is greater than a equivalent gasoline only powered vehicle. The same is true for diesel engines.
glad you aren't on the executive of any company that I've ever worked with.
We do whole of life analysyes, which generally prove that the cheapest alternative/technology isn't the cheapest in terms of lifetime costs, particularly where consumption of fuel over time is concerned.
Apples & Oranges....
A car is despite what everything thinks is a disposable consumer good. The only comparison I can make to industry is maybe corporate servers and PC's. Very short life cycle with the user.
The vast majority of new car owners by a significant margin only keep vehicles to the 100k range. The next drop off point that is around 150k miles. The balance of vehicle owners which a very small percentage is over 200k range.
The fuel savings benefits are not realized by many if that is the sole reason for buying a hybrid.
When fuel spikes the hybrid advantage will be realized. But currently paying $2.65USD/gallon of fuel not right now.
Originally Posted By: rjundi
ANY hybrid is way overpriced if the sticker price is greater than a equivalent gasoline only powered vehicle. The same is true for diesel engines.
glad you aren't on the executive of any company that I've ever worked with.
We do whole of life analysyes, which generally prove that the cheapest alternative/technology isn't the cheapest in terms of lifetime costs, particularly where consumption of fuel over time is concerned.
Apples & Oranges....
A car is despite what everything thinks is a disposable consumer good. The only comparison I can make to industry is maybe corporate servers and PC's. Very short life cycle with the user.
The vast majority of new car owners by a significant margin only keep vehicles to the 100k range. The next drop off point that is around 150k miles. The balance of vehicle owners which a very small percentage is over 200k range.
The fuel savings benefits are not realized by many if that is the sole reason for buying a hybrid.
When fuel spikes the hybrid advantage will be realized. But currently paying $2.65USD/gallon of fuel not right now.
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The Volt is a luxury car. Luxury in this case being exclusiveness & techno wizbangery. Some people value those things.
No one does a cost/benefit analysis on leather seats, V8 upgrades from V6s, sunroofs, nav systems, etc. It's funny how when it becomes an "eco" thing you all of the sudden have to justify the expense.
jeff
Jeff, with all due respect (and I do appreciate your posting), I think you're incorrect. Sure you can option up a car like a Prius or a Volt into lux territory, but you can also use a basic version thereof as a workhorse. I put over 60k miles on my Prius running it between New Orleans and Pensacola, and running it as a city commuter in NOLA before I returned home to Pensacola (de-mobilized in 2007).
Some buy such cars as techno-toys, and for them, I suppose you can label them as luxury cars. Like many others, I got mine (both my Prius and Camry hyb were used) for the utility, and I'm doing my darndest to extract as much use from both as I can. I'm sure that the Volt's life cycle will evolve the same way.
Point is, generalizations like you're making are effectively worthless. You need to look at how the individual owner is using the car. Some will buy it as a symbol; most will buy it as an effective transport device. Unless you know the use being made of it, your characterizations are meaningless.
The Volt is a luxury car. Luxury in this case being exclusiveness & techno wizbangery. Some people value those things.
No one does a cost/benefit analysis on leather seats, V8 upgrades from V6s, sunroofs, nav systems, etc. It's funny how when it becomes an "eco" thing you all of the sudden have to justify the expense.
jeff
Jeff, with all due respect (and I do appreciate your posting), I think you're incorrect. Sure you can option up a car like a Prius or a Volt into lux territory, but you can also use a basic version thereof as a workhorse. I put over 60k miles on my Prius running it between New Orleans and Pensacola, and running it as a city commuter in NOLA before I returned home to Pensacola (de-mobilized in 2007).
Some buy such cars as techno-toys, and for them, I suppose you can label them as luxury cars. Like many others, I got mine (both my Prius and Camry hyb were used) for the utility, and I'm doing my darndest to extract as much use from both as I can. I'm sure that the Volt's life cycle will evolve the same way.
Point is, generalizations like you're making are effectively worthless. You need to look at how the individual owner is using the car. Some will buy it as a symbol; most will buy it as an effective transport device. Unless you know the use being made of it, your characterizations are meaningless.
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The Volt is a luxury car. Luxury in this case being exclusiveness & techno wizbangery. Some people value those things.
No one does a cost/benefit analysis on leather seats, V8 upgrades from V6s, sunroofs, nav systems, etc. It's funny how when it becomes an "eco" thing you all of the sudden have to justify the expense.
jeff
One more thing: as for the last paragraph, of course, nobody can "justify" the expense of leather seats or sunroofs. To try would be obviously silly to everyone. But if you drive enough, under the right conditions, you can very easily justify the expense of the hybrid drive system. Your error seems to be in attempting to equate the utility of a hybrid drive system with that of a sunroof. You'll never pull off that argument. . .
EDIT: BTW, the ONLY feature I wish my Camry hybrid did NOT have is the leather seats. Mine has no sunroof WITH leather -- a relatively rare combo. Down here, the only thing leather seats do for you is set your butt on fire on a hot summer day. Good cloth for me any day...
The Volt is a luxury car. Luxury in this case being exclusiveness & techno wizbangery. Some people value those things.
No one does a cost/benefit analysis on leather seats, V8 upgrades from V6s, sunroofs, nav systems, etc. It's funny how when it becomes an "eco" thing you all of the sudden have to justify the expense.
jeff
One more thing: as for the last paragraph, of course, nobody can "justify" the expense of leather seats or sunroofs. To try would be obviously silly to everyone. But if you drive enough, under the right conditions, you can very easily justify the expense of the hybrid drive system. Your error seems to be in attempting to equate the utility of a hybrid drive system with that of a sunroof. You'll never pull off that argument. . .
EDIT: BTW, the ONLY feature I wish my Camry hybrid did NOT have is the leather seats. Mine has no sunroof WITH leather -- a relatively rare combo. Down here, the only thing leather seats do for you is set your butt on fire on a hot summer day. Good cloth for me any day...
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Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
As a poster previously said, this thread is long on GM bashing and short on facts. The frusturation over the fact the company has become Govt. Motors is really clouding people's judgment.
Much more interesting, however, is that they are building a car with a tantalizing set of strengths, irrevocably tied to a unique and unfortunate set of weaknesses.
As a poster previously said, this thread is long on GM bashing and short on facts. The frusturation over the fact the company has become Govt. Motors is really clouding people's judgment.
Much more interesting, however, is that they are building a car with a tantalizing set of strengths, irrevocably tied to a unique and unfortunate set of weaknesses.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
So, ahem, hint hint; is the Volt overpriced or not?
In terms of deliverables, I'd say undoubtedly so.
Plug in range isn't that good.
As a plug in, it can be a genuine zero emission vehicle, or a gross polluter (at least as bad as that which it's replacing). They should be sold with energy supply contracts, which detail what electricity they are using.
If plugged into the grid anywhere between 7AM and 8PM, they should have no "green" status. At night (off peak), they can marginally increase the efficiency of the grid, and should be recognised as such. If the supply contract is with a solar or wind contract, then similarly, that car's rating should reflect it's power source.
IMO, it should be rated the same as any of the hybrids. How far does it go on a tank of juice, and the plug in is a bonus for those inclined, who fit that niche.
So, ahem, hint hint; is the Volt overpriced or not?
In terms of deliverables, I'd say undoubtedly so.
Plug in range isn't that good.
As a plug in, it can be a genuine zero emission vehicle, or a gross polluter (at least as bad as that which it's replacing). They should be sold with energy supply contracts, which detail what electricity they are using.
If plugged into the grid anywhere between 7AM and 8PM, they should have no "green" status. At night (off peak), they can marginally increase the efficiency of the grid, and should be recognised as such. If the supply contract is with a solar or wind contract, then similarly, that car's rating should reflect it's power source.
IMO, it should be rated the same as any of the hybrids. How far does it go on a tank of juice, and the plug in is a bonus for those inclined, who fit that niche.
If the Govt. Motors can push Congress to pass a law requiring public and private companies with 2-300 employees or larger provide free electrical outlets for electric or plug-in hybrid, then this expensive volt may make sense.
Quote:
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
Tempest , Thankyou!!!
Quote:
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
Tempest , Thankyou!!!
Originally Posted By: Russell
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
and have some simple cycle Gas turbine somewhere else in the grid spool up just that little bit at comparatively horrible thermal efficiency to meet the increased demand during the peak daytime period...not very environmentally friendly.
I'm not a mathematician, so I can't give you a factual cost evaluation, but I'm thinking a low current draw over a long period of time, say 4-8 hours, won't be as taxing on the grid as say 400 homes would be with each drawing in 60 amps instantaneously for cycling on their air conditioners at different times of the day for 10 minutes at a time.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
. . .
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion concerning the Volt, but comparing it to the Leaf doesn't hold much water. The Leaf is a pure plug in EV and totally lacks the ability to charge itself. The Volt is a serial hybrid which can receive a plug in charge like the Leaf, or of course, self-charge through its gasoline engine.
Different animals.
. . .
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion concerning the Volt, but comparing it to the Leaf doesn't hold much water. The Leaf is a pure plug in EV and totally lacks the ability to charge itself. The Volt is a serial hybrid which can receive a plug in charge like the Leaf, or of course, self-charge through its gasoline engine.
Different animals.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Russell
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
That'd be nice, but you know how people are, someone would complain about that.
Originally Posted By: Russell
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
That'd be nice, but you know how people are, someone would complain about that.
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ekpolk, I think you missed my point. I pretty much consider any car costing $40k to be a luxury car. "Regular" cars cost Accord/Odyssey/RAV4/Prius type of vehicle, you are getting no more utility for your dollar. In the Volt's case you're getting some nifty stuff but at the end of the day you've still got a thing that'll take 4 people with some luggage from point A to point B.
And I contend that no further justification is required. If you can pay the bills, knock yourself out!
Your examples of your Prius and Camry hybrid prove my point. You bought 'em used (I'm guessing for less than $20k and $25k respectively) with a specific usage in mind that will wring the most value out of them.
The Volt, at $41k, is a car that only very well to do people can afford (ignoring the absurd gov't subsidy). It's entirely possible that many of it's buyers will be using it in such a way as to maximize the fuel savings. But the fact remains the initial purchase price is very steep, and only those who can afford to pay can do it. The masses will drive Corollas and Cruzes for much, much less.
jeff
And I contend that no further justification is required. If you can pay the bills, knock yourself out!
Your examples of your Prius and Camry hybrid prove my point. You bought 'em used (I'm guessing for less than $20k and $25k respectively) with a specific usage in mind that will wring the most value out of them.
The Volt, at $41k, is a car that only very well to do people can afford (ignoring the absurd gov't subsidy). It's entirely possible that many of it's buyers will be using it in such a way as to maximize the fuel savings. But the fact remains the initial purchase price is very steep, and only those who can afford to pay can do it. The masses will drive Corollas and Cruzes for much, much less.
jeff
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Russell
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
Where is this plug and who pays? Pay as you go Electric vehicle supply infrastructure is not yet avaialbe in public parking lots or most workplaces. premature at this time. If there are enough electric vehicles there will be a tipping point in which this service could be provided for a profit.
Originally Posted By: Russell
I commute to work every day about 30 miles each way. IMO, the Volt does not yet meet my needs.
The Volt may not work for you but an all electric car would. All you'd have to do is plug it into the parking lot receptacle and charge it up while you're working.
Where is this plug and who pays? Pay as you go Electric vehicle supply infrastructure is not yet avaialbe in public parking lots or most workplaces. premature at this time. If there are enough electric vehicles there will be a tipping point in which this service could be provided for a profit.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
Then the Leaf is a Japanese disgrace, because it also qualifies for the $7500 tax credit. Also, once the Leaf is out of juice from the battery, you better be at your destination (and have an outlet to recharge).
Quote:
You folks that are bashing this innovative product:
Please remember that the first of anything is usually not perfect and rather expensive.
Remember the first PC's? They weren't so hot either....see how far we've come?
Did any of those require a gov. subsidy to people to buy it?
NO. Innovative products don't need "help" from big brother to move their product.
This thing is a national disgrace and embarrassment. The leaf gets more than twice the miles for $10,000 less.
Then the Leaf is a Japanese disgrace, because it also qualifies for the $7500 tax credit. Also, once the Leaf is out of juice from the battery, you better be at your destination (and have an outlet to recharge).
Originally Posted By: Russell
Merkava_4 said:
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I could care less about electric cars. 40K will buy you a nice VW TDI. That gets good miles and you dont have to worry about batteries.
You want to talk about overpriced? German Engineering is overpriced.
Too many problems, and their ego is too big to realize it. No wonder they control only a small portion of the market.
+1 on that.
Now Ford plans to release an electric car. I am a Ford man, however, I know too little about this vehicle to begin bashing it. We'll have to see.
Chevy Volt, from the lying bail-out company (remember the short-lived commercials saying they paid back their gubbermint money?) is over-priced. In fact expect it to be extra-over-priced (haha redundant). The Volt will be in short supply initially, so expect dealers to charge $20,000 over sticker.
The Nissan leaf interests me. I would not buy one now, but I expect the technology to get better (think 200 mile range, cheaper price, etc.).
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I could care less about electric cars. 40K will buy you a nice VW TDI. That gets good miles and you dont have to worry about batteries.
You want to talk about overpriced? German Engineering is overpriced.
Too many problems, and their ego is too big to realize it. No wonder they control only a small portion of the market.
+1 on that.
Now Ford plans to release an electric car. I am a Ford man, however, I know too little about this vehicle to begin bashing it. We'll have to see.
Chevy Volt, from the lying bail-out company (remember the short-lived commercials saying they paid back their gubbermint money?) is over-priced. In fact expect it to be extra-over-priced (haha redundant). The Volt will be in short supply initially, so expect dealers to charge $20,000 over sticker.
The Nissan leaf interests me. I would not buy one now, but I expect the technology to get better (think 200 mile range, cheaper price, etc.).
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